JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[JehovahsWitness]

I just don't believe that low credentials could create quality works.

I agree but only because credentials is not merely having a diploma (or attendent a secular or religiously accredited school of higher learning), true "credentials" is knowing your subject. Which is why the true measure of a workman is ...his work.

No enough about creature worship, let us return to the word of God (any translation you prefer)

[Capbook]

I just don't believe that low credentials could create quality works.

I agree but only because credentials is not merely having a diploma (or attendent a secular or religiously accredited school of higher learning), true "credentials" is knowing your subject. Which is why the true measure of a workman is ...his work.

No enough about creature worship, let us return to the word of God (any translation you prefer)

I prefer the Authorized Version, that says God was manifest in the flesh. "Theos" Greek of God see below, Jesus(God) was manifest in the flesh. This is another (NWT) text translation.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1Ti 3:16 And G2532  without controversy G3672  great G3173  is G2076  the G3588  mystery G3466  of godliness: G2150  God G2316  was manifest G5319  in G1722  the flesh, G4561  justified G1344  in G1722  the Spirit, G4151  seen G3700  of angels, G32  preached G2784  unto G1722  the Gentiles, G1484  believed on G4100  in G1722  the world, G2889  received up G353  into G1722  glory. G1391

1Ti 3:16 και G2532 CONJ  ομολογουμενως G3672 ADV  μεγα G3173 A-NSN  εστιν G1510 V-PAI-3S  το G3588 T-NSN  της G3588 T-GSF  ευσεβειας G2150 N-GSF  μυστηριον G3466 N-NSN  θεος G2316 N-NSM  εφανερωθη G5319 V-API-3S  εν G1722 PREP  σαρκι G4561 N-DSF  εδικαιωθη G1344 V-API-3S  εν G1722 PREP  πνευματι G4151 N-DSN  ωφθη G3708 V-API-3S  αγγελοις G32 N-DPM  εκηρυχθη G2784 V-API-3S  εν G1722 PREP  εθνεσιν G1484 N-DPN  επιστευθη G4100 V-API-3S  εν G1722 PREP  κοσμω G2889 N-DSM  ανεληφθη G353 V-API-3S  εν G1722 PREP  δοξη G1391 N-DSF 

[JehovahsWitness]

I prefer the Authorized Version, that says God was manifest in the flesh. "Theos" Greek of God see below, Jesus(God) was manifest in the flesh. ....

Does the verse does not say Almighty God (λέγει Κύριος Παντοκράτωρ) The Father or YHWH ?

[Capbook]

I prefer the Authorized Version, that says God was manifest in the flesh. "Theos" Greek of God see below, Jesus(God) was manifest in the flesh. ....

Does the verse does not say Almighty God (λέγει Κύριος Παντοκράτωρ) The Father or YHWH ?

The verse proves that Jesus is God. And that verse was translated differently in NWT.

[JehovahsWitness]

I prefer the Authorized Version, that says God was manifest in the flesh. "Theos" Greek of God see below, Jesus(God) was manifest in the flesh. ....

Does the verse does not say Almighty God (λέγει Κύριος Παντοκράτωρ) The Father or YHWH ?

The verse proves that Jesus is God.

Jesus is god but he's not ALMIGHTY God, he's not equal in power, age or position to ALMIGHTY God Jehovah the Father.

[JehovahsWitness]

... that verse was translated differently in NWT.

Yes. Ans it was translated differently in MANY other bibles ...

NLV
He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

New Living Translation
Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ was revealed in a human body and vindicated by the Spirit. He was seen by angels and announced to the nations. He was believed in throughout the world and taken to heaven in glory.

English Standard Version
Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.


Berean Standard Bible
He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the nations, was believed in throughout the world, was taken up in glory.

Berean Literal Bible
And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: Who was revealed in the flesh, was justified in the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

New International Version
Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

New Living Translation
Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ was revealed in a human body and vindicated by the Spirit. He was seen by angels and announced to the nations. He was believed in throughout the world and taken to heaven in glory.

English Standard Version
Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh , vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

Berean Standard Bible
By common confession, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the nations, was believed in throughout the world, was taken up in glory.

Berean Literal Bible
And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: Who was revealed in the flesh, was justified in the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.


New American Standard Bible
Beyond question, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

NASB 1995
By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

NASB 1977
And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

Legacy Standard Bible
And by common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was manifested in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

Amplified Bible
And great, we confess, is the mystery [the hidden truth] of godliness: He (Jesus Christ) who was revealed in human flesh, Was justified and vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

Christian Standard Bible
And most certainly, the mystery of godliness is great: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And most certainly, the mystery of godliness is great: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

American Standard Version
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And this Mystery of Righteousness is truly great, which was revealed in the flesh and was justified in The Spirit; He appeared to Angels and was preached among the Gentiles; He was trusted in the world and he ascended into glory.

Contemporary English Version
Here is the great mystery of our religion: Christ came as a human . The Spirit proved that he pleased God, and he was seen by angels. Christ was preached to the nations. People in this world put their faith in him, and he was taken up to glory.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And evidently great is the mystery of godliness, which was manifested in the flesh, was justified in the spirit, appeared unto angels, hath been preached unto the Gentiles, is believed in the world, is taken up in glory.

English Revised Version
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen of angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, received up in glory.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The mystery that gives us our reverence for God is acknowledged to be great: He appeared in his human nature, was approved by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was announced throughout the nations, was believed in the world, and was taken to heaven in glory.

Good News Translation
No one can deny how great is the secret of our religion: He appeared in human form, was shown to be right by the Spirit, and was seen by angels. He was preached among the nations, was believed in throughout the world, and was taken up to heaven.

International Standard Version
By common confession, the secret of our godly worship is great: In flesh was he revealed to sight, kept righteous by the Spirit's might, adored by angels singing. To nations was he manifest, believing souls found peace and rest, our Lord in heaven reigning!

Literal Standard Version
and confessedly, great is the secret of piety: who was revealed in flesh, declared righteous in [the] Spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!


New American Bible
Undeniably great is the mystery of devotion, Who was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed to the Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory.

NET Bible
And we all agree, our religion contains amazing revelation: He was revealed in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

New Revised Standard Version
Without any doubt, the mystery of our religion is great: He was revealed in flesh, vindicated in spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory.

New Heart English Bible
Without controversy, the mystery of godliness is great: He was revealed in the flesh, justified by the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, and received up in glory.


Weymouth New Testament
And, beyond controversy, great is the mystery of our religion-- that Christ appeared in human form, and His claims justified by the Spirit, was seen by angels and proclaimed among Gentile nations, was believed on in the world, and received up again into glory.

How many , peer reviewed, tranlations can you count above, by language experts presumably with diplomas from recognised universities.. .have the words "God appeared in the flesh" ?

[Difflugia]

How many , peer reviewed, tranlations can you count above, by language experts

It's not a translation matter, but one of textual criticism. According to the NA28 apparatus, the majority of the Byzantine textual tradition, with which the Textus Receptus of the KJV agrees, says "God was revealed" (θεός ἐφανερώθη) rather than "who was revealed" (ὃς ἐφανερώθη), as the modern critical Greek texts have it. The majority of modern translations, including the NWT, reflect one of the critical texts.

presumably with diplomas from recognised universities

Or presumably the equivalent in voluntary community work, literacy and public speaking, foreign languages, international travel and missionary work, construction skills, disaster relief and cultural diversity, right?

[onewithhim]

What our understanding of the text is our interpretation, and it mostly differs just like yours and Clarke.

But where in the Bible that says that? The verse doesn't even say "counterpart of God Almighty"

That's Clarke interpretation of the verse...

Well I don't agree with his interpretation of the verse.

Man's interpretation of God's word always differs that's why there are many denominations.
Even as the Father addressed Jesus as God, interpreted God's word in the contrary.

The Father never addressed Jesus as God. Where do you find that?

Heb 1:8,9 the Father did addressed Jesus as God. And according to classical Jewish sources, Psalm 45 refers to the Jewish Messiah.
That is God's text interpreted by another God's text no human contribution.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Hebrews 1:8 is not to be interpreted that way. The most probable interpretation is "God is your throne forever, meaning Christ will always receive power from God. Hebrews 1:9 shows clearly that the Messiah has a God. "Even thy God" it says. So that verse is not referring to Jesus as God.

BeDuhn says about Hebrews 1:8:
"In this verse we have a sentence without verbs. A sentence must have a verb. The Bible was composed not in English but in Greek, and this makes all the difference because in Greek, the verb 'is' often is omitted as unnecessary. There are other elements in a Greek sentence, such as noun cases, that usually allow the sentence to be understood even without a simple verb like 'is.' Since it is implied it does not need to be said explicitly. When we translate from Greek into English, however, we supply the implied verb, because English is the kind of language where the verb must be there to help put the sentence together. The problem in Hebrews i:8 is that we are not sure where the verb 'is' belongs in the sentence, and where it belongs makes a big difference in the meaning of the verse. This is how it looks in Greek: ho thronos soou ho theos eis ton aiona tou aionas, literally in English: 'the throne of you the god until the age of the age.' 'The throne of you' means 'your throne.' 'The god' is the way the Bible indicates 'God'; the definite article makes it specifically the one God. Now the question is, where does the verb 'is' go in the sentence to hold it all together in a coherent English statement?

"In English we know exactly where to place a verb: it goes between the subject and the object of the verb, or, in sentences that use the verb 'to be,' between the subject and the predicate noun or predicate adjective, or some other predicate modifier. The question in Hebrews 1:8 is what is the subject? We have two nouns in the nominative form: 'throne' and 'God.' The verb 'is' might go between these two nouns, as it does in dozens of cases of saying 'x is y' in the New Testament. If that is so, then the sentence reads: 'Your throne is God, forever and ever.' The NRSV and TEY translators also recognize this as a possible translation of this verse, and include it in a footnote in their translations."

[onewithhim]

I just don't believe that low credentials could create quality works.

I agree but only because credentials is not merely having a diploma (or attendent a secular or religiously accredited school of higher learning), true "credentials" is knowing your subject. Which is why the true measure of a workman is ...his work.

No enough about creature worship, let us return to the word of God (any translation you prefer)

I prefer the Authorized Version, that says God was manifest in the flesh. "Theos" Greek of God see below, Jesus(God) was manifest in the flesh. This is another (NWT) text translation.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1Ti 3:16 And G2532  without controversy G3672  great G3173  is G2076  the G3588  mystery G3466  of godliness: G2150  God G2316  was manifest G5319  in G1722  the flesh, G4561  justified G1344  in G1722  the Spirit, G4151  seen G3700  of angels, G32  preached G2784  unto G1722  the Gentiles, G1484  believed on G4100  in G1722  the world, G2889  received up G353  into G1722  glory. G1391

1Ti 3:16 και G2532 CONJ  ομολογουμενως G3672 ADV  μεγα G3173 A-NSN  εστιν G1510 V-PAI-3S  το G3588 T-NSN  της G3588 T-GSF  ευσεβειας G2150 N-GSF  μυστηριον G3466 N-NSN  θεος G2316 N-NSM  εφανερωθη G5319 V-API-3S  εν G1722 PREP  σαρκι G4561 N-DSF  εδικαιωθη G1344 V-API-3S  εν G1722 PREP  πνευματι G4151 N-DSN  ωφθη G3708 V-API-3S  αγγελοις G32 N-DPM  εκηρυχθη G2784 V-API-3S  εν G1722 PREP  εθνεσιν G1484 N-DPN  επιστευθη G4100 V-API-3S  εν G1722 PREP  κοσμω G2889 N-DSM  ανεληφθη G353 V-API-3S  εν G1722 PREP  δοξη G1391 N-DSF 

Other versions beg to differ. The NASB words it this way: "By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh..." (NASB) Not "God was manifest in the flesh."

The New American Bible: "Undeniably great is the mystery of devotion, Who was manifested in the flesh..."

The Revised Standard Version: "Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion: He was manifested in the flesh..."

The NIV: "Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body..."

None of them say that God was manifest in the flesh. The "he" refers to Jesus, but not God.

[Difflugia]

Hebrews 1:8 is not to be interpreted that way. The most probable interpretation is "God is your throne forever, meaning Christ will always receive power from God.

Possible and probable aren't the same thing. It's possible to read "God is your throne," but there are more reasons not to.

BeDuhn says about Hebrews 1:8:

Whether or not it reflects his normal scholarship and for whatever reason, Truth in Translation is no more than apologetic arguments for the NWT. The bit you quoted makes this clear when one considers the information he omits.

"This is how it looks in Greek: ho thronos soou ho theos eis ton aiona tou aionas, literally in English: 'the throne of you the god until the age of the age.' 'The throne of you' means 'your throne.' 'The god' is the way the Bible indicates 'God'; the definite article makes it specifically the one God."

So far, so good.

Now the question is, where does the verb 'is' go in the sentence to hold it all together in a coherent English statement?

That's not the only question, or even the most important question. Whether through ignorance or artifice, BeDuhn has neglected the real question: is "the god," meaning "the one God," meant as the subject of direct address or not?

In normal Ancient Greek, one wouldn't use the definite article the, pronounced ho in Greek, when directly addressing someone by name or title. A number of translators of the Septuagint, however, did so when biblical characters directly addressed God. English translations reflect this when translating certain instances of direct addres as "O God" or "O Lord."

First, "God is your throne" makes little sense either rhetorically or theologically, so we have to at least suspect that something else might be going on. Second, Hebrews uses the "O God" construction in 10:7, as well. Here's how the NWT translates it:

"Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’"

Since there's really no way to read "your will" and "God" meaning identically the same thing, we have a case where the author of Hebrews has used a literary construction in one place that Witness apologists are trying to argue isn't valid in another. I can forgive you for not knowing this, but BeDuhn should know better and is either being disingenuous or is just a hack.

So, we have a situation where direct address seems to make more sense than the alternative and uses a literary construction that the author already uses in another verse, the most probable meaning of the verse includes "your throne, O God."

By the way, for anyone else that wants to read Truth in Translation, it's available at Internet Archive for checkout. Even used, it's oddly expensive and I was lucky enough to find a copy at a Goodwill, but it's not worth more than a few dollars. It's worth reading through once, mostly to get an idea of how shallow most of the apologetic arguments are for the NWT as a translation.