Christianity cherry-picked from the 613 Mosaic laws

[oldbadger]

Christianity cherry-picked from the 613 Mosaic laws

It most certainly did!
Would anybody like to challenge that ?

[TRANSPONDER]

I may be wrong, or at least open to challenge, but I think Paul junked pretty much all the Jewish religion, apart from its' god. I don't think he even respected the Temple very much as his churches were surely based on the idea of the Pharisee synagogue - a place for teaching the law, as much as worshipping God. Except the Law the Churches taught was Paul's new law - if they could work out what it was.

Not that Paul minded too much as he was expecting the end of the world any month or year.

Greek - gentile Christianity used this idea, notably Matthew whose sermon replaced the old laws with revised ones of the Paulinist style, which Matthew had an inkling of though I don't think he knew of Paul or his mission to the gentiles. But he did know that Jesus' mission was to the 'Lost sheep of Israel' (which was pointless as the time was not right (as the symbolism of the cursing of the fig tree shows so why God went ahead with a plan that was doomed to fail is anyone's guess (1). Matthew is much concerned with the Old Law (which he hardly i understood) and how Jesus replaced it with his New one. The beatitudes as I recall not being present in Luke's version.

Matthew 5. 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Let's see if Luke can recall any of these in his version of the sermon.

Luke 6. 20 Looking at his disciples, he said:
"Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
21 Blessed are you who hunger now,
for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who weep now,
for you will laugh.
22 Blessed are you when people hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil,
because of the Son of Man.
23 "Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets.
24 "But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.
25 Woe to you who are well fed now,
for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,
for you will mourn and weep.
26 Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you,
for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.
27 "But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Much of this is in Matthew as well, but really not much of the replacement of the old Law as in Matthew. Of course, the excuse is that Jesus gave two different sermons. But neither of them mention or even hint at the other.

Point is, this is added material, used by Matthew and Luke in different ways ("Q" document) and is not in Mark other than 'salt of the earth, which was a saying that Matthew just added to his sermon and (as I recall) turns up in a different place in Luke, as the s ynoptic original hadit.

The point is that Matthew added his new laws out of his own head and Jesus din't say anything of the kind. This is all Paulinist Christian thought and jesus (nor his disciples) would not have accepted any of it.

(1) The Plan was that God knew the Jews would reject Jesus so he could punish them with the Jewish war and the resultant death of his Messiah )by the Romans, but He'd find a way to blame the Jews for it) would enable him to provide a loophole in his own Law (imposed at Eden) of sin - death...but only for people who believed in Jesus. But who said it ever had to make any sense, never mind 2000 years of Bible scholars who ignored that it didn't.

[oldbadger]

[Replying to oldbadger in post #1]

Firstly, The Mosaic Laws had previously been there for any who would follow them, not just the Israelites.

LEVITCUS {20:22} Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all
my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring
you to dwell therein, spue you not out. {20:23} And ye shall
not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out
before you: for they committed all these things, and
therefore I abhorred them.

So there it is....... Follow these laws and be healthier, stronger, together, faster growing........ surviving!
And as the OT books can tell, the Israelite leaders often forgot or ignored those laws and this caused failure.

A very long time after they had been established and rewritten came the later prophets, and as letters like Malachi's (and others) make the call to bring them back whilst reprimanding the controlling Priests who had dumped so many:-

Reprimands such as:-
Malachi: {2:7} For the priests lips should keep
knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for
he [is] the messenger of the LORD of hosts. {2:8} But ye
are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to
stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi,
saith the LORD of hosts. {2:9} Therefore have I also made
you contemptible and base before all the people, according
as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the
law.

And appeals such as:-
Malachi:- {4:4} Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I
commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the
statutes and judgments.

And so came Jesus 2000 years ago, and although he called for the sacrificial laws and the wholly rotten Temple to be done away he wanted a return of the main body of Mosaic Law.
Matthew: . {9:13} But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice......................

and:-
Matthew : {5:18} For
verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or
one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be
fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of
these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall
be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever
shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in
the kingdom of heaven.

Many Christian Congregations hang upon the phrase 'Till all be fulfilled', but I do wonder if it was original!

So what do Christians say about 'Till all be fulfilled'???????

[TRANSPONDER]

The version in Luke is at 16.17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

contrasted with Matthew Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The way I see it is that firstly, since it only appears in Matthew and Luke, AND in different chronological contexts, this is the Matthew/Luke material added in from an outside document I call "Q". Not found in Mark (never mind John) and therefore not Synoptic original material.

Next, comparing them, the sense of both is the permanence of the law (mosaic Law). Whatever the original form was, it is more permanent than heaven and earth. But Matthew adds (as I suggest he adds rather than Luke left it out) that it will stand until 'all is fulfilled'. This may refer to the end of the world/2nd coming etc, but that is odd, since the gospels clearly sideline a lot of the law. I suspect that Mathew may have in mind (and doesn't much mind if it doesn't penetrate anyone else#s mind) that it was the death and resurrection that 'fulfilled' everything, and that cleared the way for Paul to throw Moses out and replace it with Gentile Christianity. New Law, New Covenant and New religion.

[oldbadger]

The version in Luke is at 16.17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

contrasted with Matthew Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Thanks for that.....I couldn't find that Luke verse when I wanted it.

I believe that the 'till all be fulfilled' is a Christian insert.

The way I see it is that firstly, since it only appears in Matthew and Luke, AND in different chronological contexts, this is the Matthew/Luke material added in from an outside document I call "Q". Not found in Mark (never mind John) and therefore not Synoptic original material.

Yes. I expect that all the verses from Q might be collected together. I've never looked for that.

Next, comparing them, the sense of both is the permanence of the law (mosaic Law). Whatever the original form was, it is more permanent than heaven and earth. But Matthew adds (as I suggest he adds rather than Luke left it out) that it will stand until 'all is fulfilled'. This may refer to the end of the world/2nd coming etc, but that is odd, since the gospels clearly sideline a lot of the law. I suspect that Mathew may have in mind (and doesn't much mind if it doesn't penetrate anyone else#s mind) that it was the death and resurrection that 'fulfilled' everything, and that cleared the way for Paul to throw Moses out and replace it with Gentile Christianity. New Law, New Covenant and New religion.

Absolutely.... Christian principles can jump from Pauline junk on to Mosaic Law and then to quotes from Jesus, whichever best suits the mood and moment.

.

[TRANSPONDER]

The version in Luke is at 16.17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

contrasted with Matthew Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Thanks for that.....I couldn't find that Luke verse when I wanted it.

I believe that the 'till all be fulfilled' is a Christian insert.

The way I see it is that firstly, since it only appears in Matthew and Luke, AND in different chronological contexts, this is the Matthew/Luke material added in from an outside document I call "Q". Not found in Mark (never mind John) and therefore not Synoptic original material.

Yes. I expect that all the verses from Q might be collected together. I've never looked for that.

Next, comparing them, the sense of both is the permanence of the law (mosaic Law). Whatever the original form was, it is more permanent than heaven and earth. But Matthew adds (as I suggest he adds rather than Luke left it out) that it will stand until 'all is fulfilled'. This may refer to the end of the world/2nd coming etc, but that is odd, since the gospels clearly sideline a lot of the law. I suspect that Mathew may have in mind (and doesn't much mind if it doesn't penetrate anyone else#s mind) that it was the death and resurrection that 'fulfilled' everything, and that cleared the way for Paul to throw Moses out and replace it with Gentile Christianity. New Law, New Covenant and New religion.

Absolutely.... Christian principles can jump from Pauline junk on to Mosaic Law and then to quotes from Jesus, whichever best suits the mood and moment.

.

Thank you. Yes. I have done this before in paper and online but stuff gets lost. But i have 'assembled' "Q" (Not John deLancey) which is simple - you simply toss out anything not in Both Matthew and Luke. You will find it is notable for the sermon, Matthews having aditions not in Luke, but Luke having half the material missing, but it s 'preached' on the trip to Peraea, Starting (amazingly not noticed by any Bible scholar from Jerome to the present) with the most important prayer in Christianity, taught for the first time to the disciples just after they set out on their journey at the end of the Galilee mission, while Matthew teaches it , apparently for the first time, in his sermon at the start of his mission.

Conclusion - it is material used separately and in contradictory contexts by Matthew and Luke. To any who swallow that one I double down and propose a similar thing with material common the Mark and Matthew but not found in Luke. For example, the syrio - phoenecian woman, the cursing of the fig leaf (which hath spoiled many a statue) and the aramaic quote from psalms on the cross. Which Jesus would hardly have actually done.

To any still beating rejection of new ideas syndrome...I have the 'floating stories' hypothesis.... Ehrmann, Haberman and all the other geniuses may e mail me.

[oldbadger]

To any still beating rejection of new ideas syndrome...I have the 'floating stories' hypothesis.... Ehrmann, Haberman and all the other geniuses may e mail me.

I've just ordered the collection of Q verses by Borg. Worth it for 7.

[1213]

Christianity cherry-picked from the 613 Mosaic laws

It most certainly did!
Would anybody like to challenge that ?

Please give one example?

[oldbadger]

Christianity cherry-picked from the 613 Mosaic laws

It most certainly did!
Would anybody like to challenge that ?

Please give one example?

Same sex couples? Not mentioned by Jesus.

Careless about wealth? Mentioned by Jesus.

[TRANSPONDER]

Christianity cherry-picked from the 613 Mosaic laws

It most certainly did!
Would anybody like to challenge that ?

Please give one example?

Junking all the dietary laws? Specifically. The wrangle with the pharisees about cleaning the outside of cup and bowl, with mark specifically explaining that Jesus thus declared all foods clean.

To any still beating rejection of new ideas syndrome...I have the 'floating stories' hypothesis.... Ehrmann, Haberman and all the other geniuses may e mail me.

I've just ordered the collection of Q verses by Borg. Worth it for 7.

My individuality was added to their collective, And I get no royalties.