Cultural Christians.

[William]

Elon Musk has identified himself as a cultural Christian in a new interview.

"While Im not a particularly religious person, I do believe that the teachings of Jesus are good and wise I would say Im probably a cultural Christian," the Tesla CEO said during a conversation on X with Jordan Peterson today. "Theres tremendous wisdom in turning the other cheek."

Christian beliefs, Musk argued, "result in the greatest happiness for humanity, considering not just the present, but all future humans Im actually a big believer in the principles of Christianity. I think theyre very good."

{SOURCE}

For debate.

Q: Is it better for the world to be a Cultural Christian than an all-out anti-theist?

Also.

Q: Is it better to be a Cultural Christian that belong to any organised Christian religion?

Cultural Christian Definition = Anyone that believes that the teachings of Jesus are good and wise.

[Purple Knight]

Cultural Christian Definition = Anyone that believes that the teachings of Jesus are good and wise.

Surely a Cultural Christian would need to believe in the resurrection of Jesus......yes?

See, this is my point. The supernatural stuff is bound up with the non-supernatural. If you decide not to believe in the resurrection and sacrifice, and just take the moral teachings, you're left with the idea that people are all horrid and sinful and can never be redeemed. We're now not going to Hell for it, we're just dead, but it's still an awful and probably destructive idea and I don't see how it helps anybody.

[William]

Cultural Christian Definition = Anyone that believes that the teachings of Jesus are good and wise.

Surely a Cultural Christian would need to believe in the resurrection of Jesus......yes?

See, this is my point. The supernatural stuff is bound up with the non-supernatural. If you decide not to believe in the resurrection and sacrifice, and just take the moral teachings, you're left with the idea that people are all horrid and sinful and can never be redeemed. We're now not going to Hell for it, we're just dead, but it's still an awful and probably destructive idea and I don't see how it helps anybody.

Just read this on my FB feed.

"Jesus did NOT:
Start the Christian religion
See human beings as "sinners"
Die to rescue people from Gods wrath
Establish the clergy class
Create a theological orthodoxy
Write or read the New Testament
Teach women were subservient to men
Require people to worship him
Say humankind is separate from God
Tell people heaven is a future place
Claim exclusive rights to God
Encourage the practice of religion
Believe in a literal hell
Claim superiority to all other humans
Christianity is not the fault of Jesus. Jesus said the truth will set you free. If you are not free, you have not yet uncovered the truth Jesus referred to. Just because you are a Christian doesnt mean you have uncovered it. In fact, it might be the biggest reason why you havent."
- Jim Palmer, Inner Anarchy

[oldbadger]

Cultural Christian Definition = Anyone that believes that the teachings of Jesus are good and wise.

Surely a Cultural Christian would need to believe in the resurrection of Jesus......yes?

See, this is my point. The supernatural stuff is bound up with the non-supernatural. If you decide not to believe in the resurrection and sacrifice, and just take the moral teachings, you're left with the idea that people are all horrid and sinful and can never be redeemed. We're now not going to Hell for it, we're just dead, but it's still an awful and probably destructive idea and I don't see how it helps anybody.

Well I'm a Deist and so my fate is that I will get scrunched down in to different kinds of manure until other lifeforms are attracted to me. Yuk!
But my matter and energy will just keep getting scattered, and that's ok with me.

[oldbadger]

Cultural Christian Definition = Anyone that believes that the teachings of Jesus are good and wise.

Surely a Cultural Christian would need to believe in the resurrection of Jesus......yes?

According to?

The definition is simply enough.
"Anyone who believes that the teachings of Jesus are good and wise."
Apparently Richard and Elon think that is the case and therefore refer to themselves as "Cultural Christians."

I think that is a fair enough approach to the teachings of Jesus as portrayed through the Christian Bible, for those calling themselves "atheists" who live in Christian Societies.

In some ways it may even be regarded as a recognition that these Christian Societies altogether number the greater percentage and Sir Richard recognizes that he cannot hope to convert them all to atheism, but it is still an attempt of sorts to clarify that one is not against the idea that the teachings of Jesus are "good and wise" even while one is against the idea of the non good and wise actions of the religious institutions which altogether constitute Christian Society.

In that, one can argue that Elon is being good and wise/following the teachings of Jesus and taking advantage of what Christian Society has provided re a small number of individuals able to become "obscenely wealthy" (as Athetotheist put it) while the majority struggle with providing food and shelter - health and wellbeing for themselves.

Essentially, working with what has been made available to him through a social opportunity largely supported (through participation) by those calling themselves "Christians".

I think it's a bit of a stretch to propose that Musk is following Jesus.
You know what Jesus thought of folks who bask in mammon.

[Purple Knight]

Just read this on my FB feed.

"Jesus did NOT:
Start the Christian religion
See human beings as "sinners"
Die to rescue people from Gods wrath
Establish the clergy class
Create a theological orthodoxy
Write or read the New Testament
Teach women were subservient to men
Require people to worship him
Say humankind is separate from God
Tell people heaven is a future place
Claim exclusive rights to God
Encourage the practice of religion
Believe in a literal hell
Claim superiority to all other humans
Christianity is not the fault of Jesus. Jesus said the truth will set you free. If you are not free, you have not yet uncovered the truth Jesus referred to. Just because you are a Christian doesnt mean you have uncovered it. In fact, it might be the biggest reason why you havent."
- Jim Palmer, Inner Anarchy

Some of these are quite indisputably true, like the fact that he didn't establish the clergy, but there are others that are plainly counterindicated by what's the Bible. If you discard part of the established canon about the teachings of Jesus, then, although you might be absolutely correct and everyone else might be wrong, you're not exactly following the spirit of accepting the teachings of Jesus, because the teachings of Jesus are no more special to you than the teachings of your neighbourhood drunk. Both, you will personally evaluate before you accept. No one gets put on a pedestal as wiser than you are.

Believing in the teachings of Jesus but not the supernatural elements is certainly a logical division. But at the point you then throw out some teachings and not others, because this or that must be wrong, you no longer entertain the spirit of having a teacher who is wiser than you are and thus ought to be deferred to. It's just mislabeled solipsism.

Now, solipsism is how I live my life. When anyone teaches anything, I am the final evaluator of whether it makes sense or not. That's how I think everyone should live. Some of the teachings of the Bible are wise, some are not. And it does help to gather as much of as many teachings as possible, and not dismiss anything out of hand, because although I am the final evaluator, I might not have thought of everything. I will reject what doesn't make sense, after that. So will you. So will Jim Palmer. That's a good thing but it's not the beat-me-I'm-a-dog deference of Christianity.

[JehovahsWitness]

...I've seen people who I've observed for a long time and they never made a significant mistake (not like, a typo, like an error in judgment) in my observation.

So they have made mistakes but not those you personally assess to be "significant". If we take perfect to be no mistakes, at all, then nobody's perfect.

[Purple Knight]

...I've seen people who I've observed for a long time and they never made a significant mistake (not like, a typo, like an error in judgment) in my observation.

So they have made mistakes but not those you personally assess to be "significant". If we take perfect to be no mistakes, at all, then nobody's perfect.

I don't think typos count in any serious discussions about mistakes, because this all started with needing to be forgiven, and it's not even on the level of entertainable that Jesus died for our typos. And there's a qualitative (rather than personal assessment) difference between expecting everyone to have perfect agility and physical ability, and expecting people to simply live up to the limits of the ability they actually have.

It comes down to what people are responsible for, because that's what they need to be sorry for. We probably agree that people are responsible for doing the right thing when they well know what that is, but everything else is sort of up in the air.

As I've said, I feel responsible for my type 5 errors in judgment (there was an alternative and it just didn't occur despite consideration) but I can't call myself fair if I hold others responsible for them. It feels like asking someone to answer an algebra problem correctly without having taught them algebra. Some people can do an algebra problem intuitively, but most cannot, and thus this would be an unreasonable expectation.

What I have encountered, are people who don't make type 1 errors (do something they know is wrong) and don't seem to make any errors in judgment, either.

[JehovahsWitness]

...I've seen people who I've observed for a long time and they never made a significant mistake (not like, a typo, like an error in judgment) in my observation.

So they have made mistakes but not those you personally assess to be "significant". If we take perfect to be no mistakes, at all, then nobody's perfect.

I don't think typos count in any serious discussions about mistakes...

Regardless of gravity, a mistake is an error and that is why people say "nobody's perfect" rather than "nobody has done time for drink driving" It may be expedient for you to attempt to modify language to suit your personal philosophy, but some of us are not smoke-screened or impressed by many words without substance.

JW

[William]

Cultural Christian Definition = Anyone that believes that the teachings of Jesus are good and wise.

Surely a Cultural Christian would need to believe in the resurrection of Jesus......yes?

According to?

The definition is simply enough.
"Anyone who believes that the teachings of Jesus are good and wise."
Apparently Richard and Elon think that is the case and therefore refer to themselves as "Cultural Christians."

I think that is a fair enough approach to the teachings of Jesus as portrayed through the Christian Bible, for those calling themselves "atheists" who live in Christian Societies.

In some ways it may even be regarded as a recognition that these Christian Societies altogether number the greater percentage and Sir Richard recognizes that he cannot hope to convert them all to atheism, but it is still an attempt of sorts to clarify that one is not against the idea that the teachings of Jesus are "good and wise" even while one is against the idea of the non good and wise actions of the religious institutions which altogether constitute Christian Society.

In that, one can argue that Elon is being good and wise/following the teachings of Jesus and taking advantage of what Christian Society has provided re a small number of individuals able to become "obscenely wealthy" (as Athetotheist put it) while the majority struggle with providing food and shelter - health and wellbeing for themselves.

Essentially, working with what has been made available to him through a social opportunity largely supported (through participation) by those calling themselves "Christians".

I think it's a bit of a stretch to propose that Musk is following Jesus.

Are you arguing that it is a bit of a stretch that Elon doesn't think the teachings of Jesus are good and wise?

You know what Jesus thought of folks who bask in mammon.

No. What did Jesus think about that and are you saying that Elon does this?

[William]

Just read this on my FB feed.

"Jesus did NOT:
Start the Christian religion
See human beings as "sinners"
Die to rescue people from Gods wrath
Establish the clergy class
Create a theological orthodoxy
Write or read the New Testament
Teach women were subservient to men
Require people to worship him
Say humankind is separate from God
Tell people heaven is a future place
Claim exclusive rights to God
Encourage the practice of religion
Believe in a literal hell
Claim superiority to all other humans
Christianity is not the fault of Jesus. Jesus said the truth will set you free. If you are not free, you have not yet uncovered the truth Jesus referred to. Just because you are a Christian doesnt mean you have uncovered it. In fact, it might be the biggest reason why you havent."
- Jim Palmer, Inner Anarchy

Some of these are quite indisputably true, like the fact that he didn't establish the clergy, but there are others that are plainly counterindicated by what's the Bible. If you discard part of the established canon about the teachings of Jesus, then, although you might be absolutely correct and everyone else might be wrong, you're not exactly following the spirit of accepting the teachings of Jesus, because the teachings of Jesus are no more special to you than the teachings of your neighbourhood drunk. Both, you will personally evaluate before you accept. No one gets put on a pedestal as wiser than you are.

Believing in the teachings of Jesus but not the supernatural elements is certainly a logical division. But at the point you then throw out some teachings and not others, because this or that must be wrong, you no longer entertain the spirit of having a teacher who is wiser than you are and thus ought to be deferred to. It's just mislabeled solipsism.

Now, solipsism is how I live my life. When anyone teaches anything, I am the final evaluator of whether it makes sense or not. That's how I think everyone should live. Some of the teachings of the Bible are wise, some are not. And it does help to gather as much of as many teachings as possible, and not dismiss anything out of hand, because although I am the final evaluator, I might not have thought of everything. I will reject what doesn't make sense, after that. So will you. So will Jim Palmer. That's a good thing but it's not the beat-me-I'm-a-dog deference of Christianity.

What do you think shouldn't be on Jim Palmer's list then?