Moral Bigotry Without Religion

[Purple Knight]

Question for Debate: Does moral bigotry without religion exist? If so, how does it exist?

Example #1: Moral bigotry with religion. One man eats a pig. Or he serves one for dinner. Another man says, no, whoever eats that will go to Hell. He thinks the first man is trying to send him to Hell, so he kills him. Now, if he's right, this is legitimately self-defence. If the first man will commit one atrocity, he may very well lie and try to do it again. If eating a pig is really an atrocity, then you don't even need to justify that he may send you to Hell. He's done something beyond terrible so he gets punished and most people accept that if you do something horrible enough, death might be a suitable punishment.

Example #2: Morality, without bigotry. One population thinks scams and lies are perfectly fine, but violence is never okay, while the other side thinks violence is fine if it's against dishonesty and scams which are never justified. The honest people agree not to kill the scammers, and the scammers agree to at least display in their businesses that they are lie- and scam-allowed. Now, with this compromise, both sides can live in the same society in a way that is fair to both, though each side has had to make a sacrifice: The honesty-enforced side cannot use violence against the scammer side even if they are deceived, as they would with their own, and the scammer side cannot completely pretend they are honest, as they think they have every right to do. Since each compromise requires sacrifices on both sides, theoretically, with enough compromises, everyone becomes unhappy.

I used to think there was no overlap, and a religious society must have moral bigotry, while two nonreligious people would simply have to work it out like they did in example 2, or simply not live together if they can't mutually agree on a compromise. This is because the religious person believes he (or his god) has a higher moral authority, and the nonreligious person does not believe that. I've learned there can be religious morality without bigotry, if a higher authority exists but didn't decide every nuance. Or if a higher authority exists but two people who both believe something different, can never quite be sure they're right about what it wants, so compromise has to be done in practice. But I don't see how there can be nonreligious moral bigotry.

If the nonreligious person believes he has a higher moral authority, and doesn't have to compromise because he is simply righteous and the other person isn't, how could he possibly come to this belief? I've always been very fair to the religious, assuming every rational motive I possibly can, and I ask for likewise in return: Please assume this nonreligious person is not simply insane. How can he possibly believe as he does?

[otseng]

To believe as you do, that child abuse might be right and that child abusers should be able to baby sit your kids, only works in the fictional world of your imagination.

In reality you do not wish you children to be raped just in case they might like it, you
do want to infringe on a rapists freedom to act as he or she wishes.

Moderator Comment

This is crossing over into personal comments and unsubstantiated accusations.

Please review the Rules.





______________



Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[TRANSPONDER]

To believe as you do, that child abuse might be right and that child abusers should be able to baby sit your kids, only works in the fictional world of your imagination.

In reality you do not wish you children to be raped just in case they might like it, you
do want to infringe on a rapists freedom to act as he or she wishes.

Moderator Comment

This is crossing over into personal comments and unsubstantiated accusations.

Please review the Rules.





______________



Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

oh it's fine. He is doing a better job of trashing his religion and his oern credibility than atheist apologetics could do.

[Replying to William in post #20]

Sorta...Like many a sortagod -agnostic (Very loose label there) you are close to dismissing man -made religion, but still trying to wish a cosmic mind supposed to make everything good if only we would Connect, or at least get the credit for anything good.

We are tolerant of the theist - delusions, but we are a bit tired of the residual religious claim that there is a Cosmic Mind that t is to be credited with everything even if we know it works without one

[JehovahsWitness]

The way I'm different is that if someone disagrees with me, I don't think I can tell them what to do.

But you select officials that speak for you and do.

I don't think the political process applies to those who are so morally adamant that they think their will is higher than a fair compromise. (But they're the ones who shouldn't be voting.) The result of the political process applies to those who genuinely want to use it to come to an agreement about policies, and will both accept the result as fair, should they lose. And I think anyone who wants a new age nonreligious theocracy of progressivism and tolerance should move to California, and I will support them so that they can secede. I'm more left than right, but that used to mean moral tolerance, too, not draconian moral theocracy. Sometimes I think I'm the last person alive who thinks that just because I disagree with someone, doesn't mean they're wrong and should be punished.

The one that's more useful is that you're only a bigot if your response to conflicting information is to dismiss it out of hand.

Fair enough. But are we obliged to go into an in depth discussion with everyone that tells us the earth is flat to prove to the we have given the matter due consideration? Once one is convinced of fundamental truths the only question necessary is : do you have anything new to bring to the table?

I just want to say I didnt mean to attack you personally Knight - you know I always enjoy exchanging with you. if I asked your views on child abuse it was to illustrate my point with an extreme example we can all agree on, it was certainly not to offend you or imply you appove of such horrors which I know you do not.

I apologise to you if my hyperbole was badly worded, no offense intended,

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #22]

Like many a sortagod -agnostic (Very loose label there) you are close to dismissing man -made religion, but still trying to wish a cosmic mind supposed to make everything good if only we would Connect, or at least get the credit for anything good.

That is not who I am or what I represent. That is a strawman version of what you believe is me that you have created for the purpose of being able to attack a fake representation through distraction.
Such tatic is all only happening within a mind detached from actuality.

We are tolerant of the theist - delusions,

"We"? the voices in your mind?
Who are these "we" you mention and why the tolerance?

but we are a bit tired of the residual religious claim that there is a Cosmic Mind that t is to be credited with everything even if we know it works without one

Your mind is wandering. My post made no mention of a "Cosmic Mind". Also, try not to confuse yourself between what you know and what you believe. Truthfulness is important - don't "we" agree"?

Scamming is a habitual way in which individual human personalities use their survival instincts to enable lifestyle.

The "glue" involved with that process is $money$.
Religion and Politics are wedded in that regard, and not alone - for these are the children of Culture.

It is - altogether, a Great Con which goes beyond the finger-pointers of atheism and theism and essentially embroils Human Personalities (Souls) in a web of deceit - a deceit so thick and sticky we don't even recognize it for what it is, and consequently, us for who we are.

But it ain't all bad news...

The Good News - at least for me re The Biblical Characters re the message they shared - is as long as I continue to remove the thick and sticky Religion/Politics and Culture from that Message, the news is all good.

For me - The Con is over, even while it goes on...

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #22]

Like many a sortagod -agnostic (Very loose label there) you are close to dismissing man -made religion, but still trying to wish a cosmic mind supposed to make everything good if only we would Connect, or at least get the credit for anything good.

That is not who I am or what I represent. That is a strawman version of what you believe is me that you have created for the purpose of being able to attack a fake representation through distraction.
Such tactic is all only happening within a mind detached from actuality.

We are tolerant of the theist - delusions,

"We"? the voices in your mind?
Who are these "we" you mention and why the tolerance?

but we are a bit tired of the residual religious claim that there is a Cosmic Mind that t is to be credited with everything even if we know it works without one

Your mind is wandering. My post made no mention of a "Cosmic Mind". Also, try not to confuse yourself between what you know and what you believe. Truthfulness is important - don't "we" agree"?

Scamming is a habitual way in which individual human personalities use their survival instincts to enable lifestyle.

The "glue" involved with that process is $money$.
Religion and Politics are wedded in that regard, and not alone - for these are the children of Culture.

It is - altogether, a Great Con which goes beyond the finger-pointers of atheism and theism and essentially embroils Human Personalities (Souls) in a web of deceit - a deceit so thick and sticky we don't even recognize it for what it is, and consequently, us for who we are.

But it ain't all bad news...

The Good News - at least for me re The Biblical Characters re the message they shared - is as long as I continue to remove the thick and sticky Religion/Politics and Culture from that Message, the news is all good.

For me - The Con is over, even while it goes on...

t looks like a familiar ploy to claim misrepresentation plus pretending that makes me not just misunderstanding your position, but everything else. . Very well, if I misunderstand you, explain how and what you actually meant and we'll take it from there.

"We are atheists, humanists and rationalists and We don't mind what people believe, only what is presented as public argument. If We disagree We go public in saying so and why. Did you really not know that or did you think you could pull a rhetorical cheap point?

As I recall, you argued for a Cosmic mind (you will understand what that means, even if you don't use the term) being what our consciousness is or derives from. If you do not present such a thing as a valid hypothesis, please do say so and then explain why you are not an atheist, because the Cosmic mind seems the last and only thing you have that makes you theist or 'agnostic' as you may call it.

It is a stock erroneous ploy to go for the One Shot - claim a mistake and error and rather than correct that and move on with the discussion, pretend it wins the discussion.

For the rest evolutionary biology warring against the intent of reciprocity to make human society work fairly is the problem, but you 'good news is that slow progress is made even if we slip back into the old ways so often.

But that Good News is not to be found in religion, let alone one particular one, but in undertanding ourselves and the instincts that drive us, not in being suckered by the scam of religion claiming to have the solution.

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #25]

Good News is not to be found in religion, let alone one particular one, but in undertanding ourselves and the instincts that drive us, not in being suckered by the scam of religion claiming to have the solution.

My point was that the Great Scam isn't restricted to only religion - or politics - It is sourced in culture...which isn't interested in any "solution" ...

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #25]

Good News is not to be found in religion, let alone one particular one, but in undertanding ourselves and the instincts that drive us, not in being suckered by the scam of religion claiming to have the solution.

My point was that the Great Scam isn't restricted to only religion - or politics - It is sourced in culture...which isn't interested in any "solution" ...

I can agree, but I am a half full rather than half empty person. Evolution has given us instincts to push for ourselves, our family and our tribe, But reason and philosophy has enabled us to beat instinct as it has enabled us to adapt the world to us rather than adapt to it. Religion ought not to take the credit for it as it certainly doesn't want to take the blame when it is used as a cover for anti - social activities. Of which science - denial and perversion of reason into dogma and sophistry is just one of the faults.

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #27]

But reason and philosophy has enabled us to beat instinct as it has enabled us to adapt the world to us rather than adapt to it.

Hows that working out for everyone?



It is a common perception among atheists, but is it really true, or simply an empty boast/a con in itself.

Perhaps you should give some examples of evidence to back your belief-claim...

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #27]

But reason and philosophy has enabled us to beat instinct as it has enabled us to adapt the world to us rather than adapt to it.

Hows that working out for everyone?



It is a common perception among atheists, but is it really true, or simply an empty boast/a con in itself.

Perhaps you should give some examples of evidence to back your belief-claim...

We are going through a sticky patch at the moment, but If Trump loses the next election, despite getting a bit of glass in his ear with heroic gesture, the rush to global dictatorships could be turned back to the promising days between 2002 and 2014. And it a common short - sightedness that the world, life and society is not far better than it was 200 or even 100 years ago, and never mind that our lives are ruined because you tube and Google inflicts more and more crummy adverts on us.

Amid the many scams going on, political as well as economic, the one I will never entertain is a rush to religion or even to theism, just because of hand - wringing agents of despair (real or feigned) claiming that the world is going down the tube.

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #27]

But reason and philosophy has enabled us to beat instinct as it has enabled us to adapt the world to us rather than adapt to it.

Hows that working out for everyone?



It is a common perception among atheists, but is it really true, or simply an empty boast/a con in itself.

Perhaps you should give some examples of evidence to back your belief-claim...

We are going through a sticky patch at the moment, but If Trump loses the next election, despite getting a bit of glass in his ear with heroic gesture, the rush to global dictatorships could be turned back to the promising days between 2002 and 2014. And it a common short - sightedness that the world, life and society is not far better than it was 200 or even 100 years ago, and never mind that our lives are ruined because you tube and Google inflicts more and more crummy adverts on us.

Amid the many scams going on, political as well as economic, the one I will never entertain is a rush to religion or even to theism, just because of hand - wringing agents of despair (real or feigned) claiming that the world is going down the tube.

Interestingly all the following phrases add up to the same number.

534
Inflicting science upon a specie which is not ready for it
Advancing the frontier through the hypothesis of GOD
Exploring the Concept of Infinity and the Nature of God.
The way science is used is at the heart of con-artistry.

322
Expression of Astonishment
United States Strategic Command
Fearlessness neutralizes fear
Universal mind The Library of Babel
Generative adversarial network
It's got to be in there somewhere
The world is going down the tube

What would it matter to either atheism or theism, that the world is going down the tube?

866
I am an atheist in relation to anyone's interpretation of characterizations of any gods…
What would it matter to either atheism or theism, that the world is going down the tube?

415
What Are Your Thoughts On The Subject?
July Nineteen Fifty Two Washington DC
Love & Respect Musing On The Mother Act III
As one does from time to time...Shuffle List
It's just the camouflage - Inside I am beautiful
Same propellent - different perspectives.
The External Voice Think outside the box
Percolating in the Mathematical Community
Word2Number Calculator = The Deeper Reality
How’s that working out for everyone

Scientific mindfulness would pay attention to the incontrovertible.

737
Source Intelligence is stripping away the veils that hide the true meaning
It's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years
The root of our own happiness and welfare rests with a peaceful and tamed mind.
Scientific mindfulness would pay attention to the incontrovertible.