Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

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Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #1

Post by mms20102 »

Across my Biblical studies in the old testament there is a chapter named Daniel and this chapter has some visions that's supposed to represent the future events to come and in most of the time those visions are represented in real Historic facts, in this post I would like to discuss the vision of Daniel 7 https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Daniel-Chapter-7/
So I will make 4 main points in this post:

1- The 4 beasts
2- The 10 horns
3- The small horn
4- The time after the small horn

First point is the 4 beasts no one will had different interpretation of the beasts other than the 4 empires, 1- Babylon 2- Persian 3- Greek 4- Roman

Second point is the 10 horns.
23-Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24-And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
The Hakham Saadia Gaon said in his Book
The ten could be :
1- The greatest emperors.
2- The greatest fathers ( The earliest Emperors )
3- The greatest one of each family.
If we take any of the above conditions only 10 emperors will remain.

In my opinion they are the 10 emperors that conquered Jerusalem and killed both monotheists and Trinitarians and they are ten starting from Nero up to Diocletian 305 not just my humble opinion but also the opinion of many Christian theologians.

Now the small Horn
24 - and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
The small horn here should be also an emperor from the Romans and after 10 emperors and he shall conquer three and say great things against God and will be different from those 10 and the one matching the vision is Constantine the Great.
Constantine the Great in 313 made the Edict of Milan which declared tolerance for Christianity in the Roman Empire, he began to favor Christianity beginning in 312, finally becoming a Christian and being baptised by either Eusebius of Nicomedia an Arian bishop or Pope Saint Sylvester which is maintained by the Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great).
he eliminated 3 emperors

In his book History of Christian Church, Philip Schaff mentioned
With his every victory, over his pagan rivals, Galerius, Maxentius, and Licinius, his personal leaning to Christianity and his confidence in the magic power of the sign of the cross increased; yet he did not formally renounce heathenism, and did not receive baptism until, in 337, he was laid upon the bed of his death
(https://worthychristianbooks.com/histor ... an-empire/)
The very brightest period of his reign is stained with gross crimes, which even the spirit of the age and the policy of an absolute monarch cannot excuse. After having reached, upon the bloody path of war, the goal of his ambition, the sole possession of the empire, yea, in the very year in which he summoned the great council of Nicaea, he ordered the execution of his conquered rival and brother-in-law, Licinius, in breach of a solemn promise of mercy (324). Not satisfied with this, he caused soon afterwards, from political suspicion, the death of the young Licinius, his nephew, a boy of hardly eleven years. But the worst of all is the murder of his eldest son, Crispus, in 326
Also in their book (The Complete Book of When and Where) E. Michael Rusten · Sharon O. Rusten wrote
But there was a darker side to Constantine. In 326, he had his wife, the sister of Maxentius, and one son executed under suspicious circumstances. He also never relinquished his position as chief priest of the pagan state religion, and his coins proclaimed his allegiance to the sun god. He delayed Christian baptism until shortly before his death.

https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... nstantine/
His conversion was not accompanied by a sharp break with his former paganism. Rather, a transition is discernible from the worship of the divine Sun to the service of the one true Christian God. When, in 321, he made the first day of the week a holiday, he described it as the day of the sun (but so do Christians today!).
https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... rly-church
What Constantine did about Christmas further suggests he had Christianity in mind. Early Christians, of course, had no information that would help the, calculate the date of Christ's birth. The earliest evidence for the observance of December 25 as the birthday of Christ appears in the Philocalian Calendar, composed at Rome in 336. For many years this date was observed only in the west ; the eastern churchs observed Jan 6, Epiphany. Curiously, pagan holidays lay behind both of these dates. December 25 was the Natalis Soli Invicti, the birthday of the Unconquered Sun. Jan 6 was the feast of Dionysus.
so regarding the quotations above we can say for sure the small horn is Constantine the Great

Now before going to 4th point we need to highlight some points
1- His converting to Christianity was political issue
2- He eliminated monotheists and declared trinitarians
3- He was never baptized until his death
4- He killed many of his family members
5- He mixed Christianity and paganism
6- He killed anyone owned Arian books


Now we move to point 4, the point that Christians ,Muslims and other theologians have interpreted differently
He will speak words against the Most High [God] and wear down the saints of the Most High, and he will intend to change the times and the law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, [two] times, and half a time [three and one-half years].
https://biblehub.com/daniel/7-25.htm

we need to ask first who ended the Ruling of Constantine and his followers, and the answer is clear, Muslims ended the ruling of Constantine and his followers over Jerusalem ( Kingdom of God). Constantine and his followers reigned over Jerusalem from 305 up 636 means 331 years which is by lunar years 640 and which is almost 3.5 portions of time ( 1 portion = 100 years )

This post was nothing but a personal view to the vision.

Edit Important note: -
Main researcher ( Ahmed Spea )
The post is a modified English version of the main research.
Last edited by mms20102 on Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #71

Post by JehovahsWitness »

GoldenCup wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 9:42 pm Rev. 17:8 ...(THIS IS THE SEA BEAST ...)
No, Rev 17:8 does not refer to the sea beast, it's the scarlet (red) beast ("the image of the beast" - Rev 13:14)
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #72

Post by GoldenCup »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #71]
No, Rev 17:8 does not refer to the sea beast, it's the scarlet (red) beast ("the image of the beast")
Can you prove this scripturally? Please explain the prophetic connections that prove your thesis.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #73

Post by JehovahsWitness »

GoldenCup wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 1:05 am [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #71]
No, Rev 17:8 does not refer to the sea beast, it's the scarlet (red) beast ("the image of the beast")
Can you prove this scripturally? Please explain the prophetic connections that prove your thesis.
  • The sea beast is at no time identified as being red (scarlet) - rather with a leopard (Rev 13:2)
  • The sea beast is identified with a fatal wound (Rev 13:3b; Rev 13:15)
  • The sea beast gets its power directly from Satan the Devil (The dragon) (Rev 13:4)
The sea beast has an image (ie a replica of itself) which is differentiated by its colour (scarlet) (Rev 13:14b)Image

  • The scarlet beast gets its authority from the earth beast (Rev 13:15)
  • The scarlet beast is identified with its descent and ascent from an abyss (Rev 17:8)



FURTHER READING What Is the Scarlet-Colored Beast of Revelation Chapter 17?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... lation-17/
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #74

Post by JehovahsWitness »

The woman is not sitting on the (leopard) sea beast , she's sitting on the scarlet beast (see above)

The sea beast is not the 7th Head of ... the sea beast. If that were the case, since the beast represents world government in general, the 7th head would have existed in John's day. The heads represents successive world powers, and the 7th head was to come to prominence AFTER Rome.
The 7th head follows the same pattern as the previous 6: it is the world power that followed ROME: ie The Ango-American world power


To learn more please go to other posts related to

DANIEL'S PROPHECIES , .THE SECOND COMING * and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION
*The Return of Christ
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #75

Post by GoldenCup »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #74]
The sea beast is not the 7th Head of ... the sea beast.

The Sea Beast took it's throne, power, and authority from the 7 headed Dragon as you stated in your previous post. So the Sea Beast "Is not the head of the sea beast," it's the successive head to the Dragon which would be the 7th. That's why the Sea beast also has 7 Heads and 10 Horns because it's the continuation of the dragon. When the sea beast rises it succeeds the 6th head of the dragon as the 7th head.

"5 have fallen": 1.EGYPT - 2.ASSYRIA - 3.BABYLON - 4.MEDO-PERSIA - 5.GREECE

ONE IS: 6.ROME

THE OTHER HAS NOT YET COME = 7TH HEAD OF THE DRAGON CONTINUED IN THE SEA BEAST.

Hope that clears it up for you.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #76

Post by JehovahsWitness »

GoldenCup wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 12:44 pm...
So the Sea Beast [ is ] ... the 6th head of the dragon
Can you prove this scripturally (without being circular)?
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #77

Post by JehovahsWitness »

"5 have fallen": 1.EGYPT - 2.ASSYRIA - 3.BABYLON - 4.MEDO-PERSIA - 5.GREECE

ONE IS: 6.ROME

THE OTHER HAS NOT YET COME = 7TH HEAD /8THE KING
The angel of Revelation 17 explains WHICH beast the above concerns


WHICH BEAST "WAS BUT IS NOT"?

  • Rev 17:3 "And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet-colored wild beast ..."
  • Rev 17:7, 8 "... the mystery of the woman and of the wild beast that is carrying her and that has the seven heads and the ten horns: 8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, ..."
  • Rev 17:9-11The seven heads mean seven mountains, ---> where the woman sits< --- on top. 10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not,+ it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven

CONCLUSION :


The woman is sitting on the scarlet (red) beast , identified as the beast that "was but is not" . It is this scarlet beast Not the sea beast, that is the so-called 8th King (not 8th head).
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Jun 13, 2024 1:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #78

Post by GoldenCup »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #76]
So the Sea Beast [ is ] ... the 6th head of the dragon
I think you misquoted me. I said the sea beast is the 7th head NOT the 6th head of the dragon. The sea beast is the continuation of the Dragon and the successive head to it. That's why the ONE IS was ROME aka 6th head. So obviously the ONE THAT HAS NOT YET COME
MUST BE THE 7TH HEAD. DO YOU AGREE?

John isn't specifically told that the ONE THAT IS is the 6th head, yet it's clearly implied through basic reasoning isn't it? So the ONE THAT HAS NOT YET COME must be the 7th head correct?

Who succeeds the Dragon and 6th head? Yes, the SEA BEAST (the one that has NOT YET COME) who received it's THRONE, power and authority from the dragon/ROME/6TH HEAD. Therefore when the sea beast rises, it's the 7th head.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #79

Post by JehovahsWitness »

GoldenCup wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 1:36 pmThe sea beast is the continuation of the Dragon and the successive head to it.
So the dragon ceased to exist ceases to influence mankind? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say the sea beast is an expression of the dragon's dominance?
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #80

Post by GoldenCup »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #77]
The woman is sitting on the scarlet (red) beast , identified as the beast that "was but is not" . It is this scarlet beast Not the sea beast, that is the so-called 8th King (not 8th head).
"And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a GREAT RED DRAGON, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems"

"Then I saw a beast with ten horns and seven heads rising out of the sea".
"And the dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority".

Rev. 17:3, And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a SCARLET (RED) BEAST that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns.

From this we can conclude that the reason the Beast is the color SCARLET/RED, is because THE GREAT RED DRAGON IS WORKING THROUGH THE SEA BEAST SINCE IT TRANSFERRED TO IT, ITS POWER THRONE AND GREAT AUTHORITY.

It's RED/SCARLET like the Dragon that's USING IT for his purpose. The sea beast and scarlet beast are ONE AND THE SAME, NOT DIFFERENT.

The 7th head is the sea beast who was and is NOT because it's mystery BABYLON the Great. It's the revival of ancient Babylion who conquered the known world and ruled over the Kings of the earth with an iron rod. Babylon was a GOLDEN CUP in the Lord's hand, and through it he conquered and punished all the Kingdoms round about the known world at that time, including the Kingdom of Judah and destroyed the temple of Solomon. It was the Great Capital city of Babylon that ruled over the nations, peoples, and tongues, until God sent the Medes, Persians, and others to destroy it. In the same way, MYSTERY BABYLON of the future would accomplish the same feat as ancient babylon, and Rule over the Kings of the earth as well as destroy the temple.

To be able to understand MYSTERY BABYLON of the future, you must read the old testament and find out what happened with ANCIENT BABYLON OF THE PAST, THEN MAKE THE CONNECTIONS.

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