Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

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Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

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Across my Biblical studies in the old testament there is a chapter named Daniel and this chapter has some visions that's supposed to represent the future events to come and in most of the time those visions are represented in real Historic facts, in this post I would like to discuss the vision of Daniel 7 https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Daniel-Chapter-7/
So I will make 4 main points in this post:

1- The 4 beasts
2- The 10 horns
3- The small horn
4- The time after the small horn

First point is the 4 beasts no one will had different interpretation of the beasts other than the 4 empires, 1- Babylon 2- Persian 3- Greek 4- Roman

Second point is the 10 horns.
23-Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24-And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
The Hakham Saadia Gaon said in his Book
The ten could be :
1- The greatest emperors.
2- The greatest fathers ( The earliest Emperors )
3- The greatest one of each family.
If we take any of the above conditions only 10 emperors will remain.

In my opinion they are the 10 emperors that conquered Jerusalem and killed both monotheists and Trinitarians and they are ten starting from Nero up to Diocletian 305 not just my humble opinion but also the opinion of many Christian theologians.

Now the small Horn
24 - and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
The small horn here should be also an emperor from the Romans and after 10 emperors and he shall conquer three and say great things against God and will be different from those 10 and the one matching the vision is Constantine the Great.
Constantine the Great in 313 made the Edict of Milan which declared tolerance for Christianity in the Roman Empire, he began to favor Christianity beginning in 312, finally becoming a Christian and being baptised by either Eusebius of Nicomedia an Arian bishop or Pope Saint Sylvester which is maintained by the Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great).
he eliminated 3 emperors

In his book History of Christian Church, Philip Schaff mentioned
With his every victory, over his pagan rivals, Galerius, Maxentius, and Licinius, his personal leaning to Christianity and his confidence in the magic power of the sign of the cross increased; yet he did not formally renounce heathenism, and did not receive baptism until, in 337, he was laid upon the bed of his death
(https://worthychristianbooks.com/histor ... an-empire/)
The very brightest period of his reign is stained with gross crimes, which even the spirit of the age and the policy of an absolute monarch cannot excuse. After having reached, upon the bloody path of war, the goal of his ambition, the sole possession of the empire, yea, in the very year in which he summoned the great council of Nicaea, he ordered the execution of his conquered rival and brother-in-law, Licinius, in breach of a solemn promise of mercy (324). Not satisfied with this, he caused soon afterwards, from political suspicion, the death of the young Licinius, his nephew, a boy of hardly eleven years. But the worst of all is the murder of his eldest son, Crispus, in 326
Also in their book (The Complete Book of When and Where) E. Michael Rusten · Sharon O. Rusten wrote
But there was a darker side to Constantine. In 326, he had his wife, the sister of Maxentius, and one son executed under suspicious circumstances. He also never relinquished his position as chief priest of the pagan state religion, and his coins proclaimed his allegiance to the sun god. He delayed Christian baptism until shortly before his death.

https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... nstantine/
His conversion was not accompanied by a sharp break with his former paganism. Rather, a transition is discernible from the worship of the divine Sun to the service of the one true Christian God. When, in 321, he made the first day of the week a holiday, he described it as the day of the sun (but so do Christians today!).
https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... rly-church
What Constantine did about Christmas further suggests he had Christianity in mind. Early Christians, of course, had no information that would help the, calculate the date of Christ's birth. The earliest evidence for the observance of December 25 as the birthday of Christ appears in the Philocalian Calendar, composed at Rome in 336. For many years this date was observed only in the west ; the eastern churchs observed Jan 6, Epiphany. Curiously, pagan holidays lay behind both of these dates. December 25 was the Natalis Soli Invicti, the birthday of the Unconquered Sun. Jan 6 was the feast of Dionysus.
so regarding the quotations above we can say for sure the small horn is Constantine the Great

Now before going to 4th point we need to highlight some points
1- His converting to Christianity was political issue
2- He eliminated monotheists and declared trinitarians
3- He was never baptized until his death
4- He killed many of his family members
5- He mixed Christianity and paganism
6- He killed anyone owned Arian books


Now we move to point 4, the point that Christians ,Muslims and other theologians have interpreted differently
He will speak words against the Most High [God] and wear down the saints of the Most High, and he will intend to change the times and the law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, [two] times, and half a time [three and one-half years].
https://biblehub.com/daniel/7-25.htm

we need to ask first who ended the Ruling of Constantine and his followers, and the answer is clear, Muslims ended the ruling of Constantine and his followers over Jerusalem ( Kingdom of God). Constantine and his followers reigned over Jerusalem from 305 up 636 means 331 years which is by lunar years 640 and which is almost 3.5 portions of time ( 1 portion = 100 years )

This post was nothing but a personal view to the vision.

Edit Important note: -
Main researcher ( Ahmed Spea )
The post is a modified English version of the main research.
Last edited by mms20102 on Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #61

Post by GoldenCup »

Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #57]
But where it goes wrong is in seeing Daniel as some prophecy of it. I recall it was shown to be nothing more than retrospective history just before the maccabean war and ends before the time of Jesus, never mind the Roman empire.
I believe the text doesn't allow for Antiochus Epihphanes to be the little horn that daniel spoke of. Daniel and John saw visions that interconnect and the Book of Revelation is the sequel to the visions of the book of Daniel. When we study these books we will begin to see tha parallels and make the connections. It becomes clear that Antiochus Epihpanes CANNOT possibly be the little horn that Daniel spoke of. This will be proven scripturally...

Daniel 7:21-25,
21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and PREVAILING against them...,
24 And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom. After them another king, different from the earlier ones, will rise and subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.

So from Daniel 7 we can clearly see that this "little horn" will make war with the Saints for a time, times, and half a time; which is the same as the 42 months that is given to the sea beast to make war with the saints, after the dragon gives him his throne, power, and authority.

The big question here is WHO ARE THE SAINTS that the little horn from the sea beast makes war with?

Rev. 12:17, 13:1-10
Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring,
ON THOSE WHO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND HOLD TO THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS. And he stood on the sand of the sea... And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads... And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority... And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast..

5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words (just as the little horn in Daniel 7) and it was allowed to exercise authority for FORTY-TWO MONTHS (time, times, and half a time of the little horn in Daniel). Also it was allowed TO MAKE WAR ON THE SAINTS and to CONQUER them... 10 Here is a call for the endurance and FAITH of the saints.

Daniel 7:21,
As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and PREVAILING against them, until the Ancient of Days arrived and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for them to possess the kingdom.

So we can clearly see that the little horn arises out of the sea beast which was given his power, THRONE, and authority from the Dragon to be able to make war with the SAINTS; which are those who KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND HAVE THE TESIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST.

We must ask ourselves one question, did the Maccabees have the testimony of Jesus Christ? Jesus hadn't even been born so how did Antiochus Epiphanes make war with those who had the Testimony & Faith of Jesus Christ?

There seems to be a prophetic and historical piece of the puzzle which hasn't been properly analyzed, interpreted, and connected between the little horn of Daniel, and the Sea Beast of Revelation from which the little horn arises; and this is where the confusion comes in.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #62

Post by GoldenCup »

[Replying to mms20102 in post #1] Thanks for your perspective. I believe I read it earlier in the thread.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #63

Post by JehovahsWitness »

GoldenCup wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 4:50 pm.... Daniel and John saw visions that interconnect and the Book of Revelation is the sequel to the visions of the book of Daniel.
ARE THE VISIONS OF DANIEL AND REVELATION HISTORIC NARRATIVE OR PROPHETIC ?

Daniel and John are indeed connected (and much, if not all is lost to those viewing the books as history rather than prophecy); they both deal with key events of our modern era but Daniel builds to our day with prophecies that start in his.
AMOS 3:7

For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets.

Image

By starting at the wrong starting point (The 1st century) instead of where it should begin namely on "the Lords day" meaning the period when Jesus begin kingdom rule ; none of the prophecies in REVELATION will fall into place.

RELATED POSTS
How does the sequencing of Daniel and Revelation correspond?
viewtopic.php?p=1022583#p1022583
To learn more please go to other posts related to

DANIEL'S PROPHECIES , .THE SECOND COMING * and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION
*The Return of Christ
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #64

Post by GoldenCup »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #60]
There is no "eighth head" mentioned in the bible... there's an eighth KING , but no eighth head! The eighth KING does not correspond to the earth beast, but rather to the "scarlet beast" namely The United Nations.
Thanks for sharing your perspective but I respectfully disagree. The 7 Mountains were interpreted by the Angel to be 7 "Kings." Do Kings have Kingdoms? In the old testament Mountains are symbolic of Kingdoms/Nations: …

Jeremiah 51:24-25
Before your very eyes I will repay Babylon and all the dwellers of Chaldea for all the evil they have done in Zion,” declares the LORD.
25“Behold, I am against you, O destroying MOUNTAIN, you who devastate the whole earth, declares the LORD. I will stretch out My hand against you; I will roll you over the cliffs and turn you into a charred mountain.

So scripturally, the Woman (A city) sits on (rules over) 7 Mountains, which are 7 Kingdoms (which naturally have Kings/Kingships).

Kings and Kingdoms are used interchangeably many times in bible prophecy.

So do you agree that the 7 heads are 7 Kingdoms with their respective Kingships?

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #65

Post by JehovahsWitness »

GoldenCup wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 7:06 pm [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #60]
There is no "eighth head" mentioned in the bible... there's an eighth KING , but no eighth head! The eighth KING does not correspond to the earth beast, but rather to the "scarlet beast" namely The United Nations.
Thanks for sharing your perspective but I respectfully disagree. The 7 Mountains were interpreted by the Angel to be 7 "Kings." Do Kings have Kingdoms? In the old testament Mountains are symbolic of Kingdoms/Nations: …
Perhaps you are having difficulty in seeing the difference between the word HEAD and the entirely different word KING (the words start with different letters of the alphabet, perhaps that will help ). If you re-read my post you will see that I said there was no 8th HEAD w(starting with the letter "h") I did not say there was no 8th king?



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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #66

Post by JehovahsWitness »

WHY OR THAT IS THE LITTLE HORN IN THE BOOK OF DANIEL CHAPTER 7?

The small horn represents the British Empire
DANIEL 7:8a

"look! another horn, a small one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were plucked up from before it...."
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #67

Post by JehovahsWitness »

GoldenCup wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 7:06 pm
So scripturally, the Woman (A city) sits on (rules over) 7 Mountains, which are 7 Kingdoms (which naturally have Kings/Kingships).
The woman rides or is carried by the beast. The scripture doesnt say she "rules" over it; the context of Revelaton indicates the relationship is mutually beneficial but that her power comes from her fabulous wealth and popular support.

Image
  • The woman represents all of the worlds religions.
  • The scarlet beast : The United Nations.
Who or what is "The Whore of Babylon"?
viewtopic.php?p=1065532#p1065532

Why can BTG not represent the Roman empire or the Roman Catholic church alone?
viewtopic.php?p=1065938#p1065938
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #68

Post by GoldenCup »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 7:12 pm
GoldenCup wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 7:06 pm [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #60]
There is no "eighth head" mentioned in the bible... there's an eighth KING , but no eighth head! The eighth KING does not correspond to the earth beast, but rather to the "scarlet beast" namely The United Nations.
Thanks for sharing your perspective but I respectfully disagree. The 7 Mountains were interpreted by the Angel to be 7 "Kings." Do Kings have Kingdoms? In the old testament Mountains are symbolic of Kingdoms/Nations: …
Perhaps you are having difficulty in seeing the difference between the word HEAD and the entirely different word KING (the words start with different letters of the alphabet, perhaps that will help ). If you re-read my post you will see that I said there was no 8th HEAD w(starting with the letter "h") I did not say there was no 8th king?
Perhaps you're having difficulty in seeing how HEADS & MOUNTAINS are synonymous with KINGDOMS, which naturally have Kings; and therefore if we apply this same consistent interpretation to the 8th King, it must also be referring to an 8th Kingdom/Head.

The old testament proves that Mountains are synonymous with Kingdoms, and the Angel corroborates this when he tells John that the 7 HEADS are 7 MOUNTAINS and are also 7 Kings. We can deduce that Kings have Kingdoms and thus these terms are being used interchangeably correct? So you missed my point. If the 7 HEADS are 7 Mountains which are 7 KINGDOMS (with their respective Kingships) then the 8th King must also be a KINGDOM aka MOUNTAIN aka HEAD as the previous 7 were.

So when we read: "The seven HEADS are seven MOUNTAINS on which the woman sits, and Five have fallen, ONE IS, and the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while," we understand that the 5 Kingdoms that have fallen are: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, & the ONE THAT IS (during John's time) was ROME which is the 6th HEAD/Kingdom.

Proceeding to Rev. 17:8,
"The beast that you saw—it was, and now is no more, but is about to come up out of the Abyss AND GO TO ITS DESTRUCTION. And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be."
(THIS IS THE SEA BEAST AND THE 7TH HEAD/KINGDOM WHICH COMES AFTER PAGAN ROME/6TH HEAD)


Rev. 12:11,
And the beast which was, and is not, IS ALSO himself AN EIGHTH, and is of the seven, AND GOES TO DESTRUCTION.

(THIS REFERS TO THE EARTH BEAST/8TH HEAD WHICH COMES FROM THE 7TH HEAD, JUST AS THE EARTH BEAST CAME FROM THE SEA BEAST BUT RECEIVES ALL THE AUTHORITY OF THE FIRST BEAST BEFORE HIM "IN HIS PRESENCE" AND CAUSES TO MAKE AN IMAGE TO THE FIRST BEAST)


Now I want you to notice something in the previous verses about the Sea and the Earth Beast... Do you see how both of them are said to: GO TO DESTRUCTION?

Now I want you to make the connection with Rev. 19:20,
"But the beast was captured along with the false prophet, who on its behalf had performed signs deceiving those who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. Both the beast and the false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

So the Sea Beast and Earth Beast (False prophet) are the 7th and 8th heads which both go to destruction when they're thrown in the Lake of fire.
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #69

Post by GoldenCup »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 7:12 pm Perhaps you are having difficulty in seeing the difference between the word HEAD and the entirely different word KING (the words start with different letters of the alphabet, perhaps that will help ). If you re-read my post you will see that I said there was no 8th HEAD w(starting with the letter "h") I did not say there was no 8th king?
You yourself use Kings and Kingdoms interchangeably as proven from your image of the 8 Kingdoms. So why do you use inconsistent interpretation for the 8th King if all previous heads/mountains/Kings are synonymous with KINGDOMS? The argument that scripture doesn't explicitly state that the 8th King is an 8th head, IS NOT VALID because it's IMPLIED through the interpetation of the MOUNTAINS/HEADS/KINGS by the Angel, and also the old testament which calls BABYLON a "destroying MOUNTAIN."

So HEADS = MOUNTAINS, MOUNTAINS = KINGDOMS, KINGDOMS ARE RULED BY KINGS, KINGDOMS & KINGS ARE USED INTERCHANGEABLY AS PROVEN FROM SCRIPTURE, AND PROVEN BY YOUR OWN IMAGE OF THE SEQUENCE OF THE 8 KINGDOMS.

Now apply the same consistent interpretation to the 8th King and your confusion will be resolved.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #70

Post by JehovahsWitness »

GoldenCup wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 9:42 pm
Perhaps you're having difficulty in seeing how HEADS & MOUNTAINS are synonymous with KINGDOMS
Did at any point prior to this post did you write the word "synonymous"? Yes, I admit it, I was having difficulty reading your mind. But still its best to not misquote the bible and stop refering to the "eighth head". None of the beast have 8 heads and there is no scripture says the words "eighth head". One beast has a head, that acts like an 8th King, No more no less.

Revelation is complicated enough without your attempting to change the imagery and each feature has a specific reason for being as it is. Stop messing with it.
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