Can Atheists be Moral? Can the Religious?

[Purple Knight]

Question for Debate: Can Atheists be Moral? Can the religious be moral?

I've heard the idea that atheists can't be moral, because physically, we're all just selfish apes, protecting and increasing our genes, and without some supernatural addition to this formula, good is not possible. The ape mother protects her child because that increases her genes. This act, the idea goes, is not moral, but selfish. Any time a human helps another human, this idea would apply.

I've also heard that religious people can't really be moral because whatever they do that is supposedly moral, they don't do it for its own sake, but for the reward. I've even heard that religious people can't be moral because their morality is unthinking. Random total obedience is morally neutral at best, so, the idea goes, if you're just blindly trusting somebody, even a powerful entity, that's not really morality.

Both of these ideas frankly seem to hold water so I'm curious if anyone can be moral.

[nameless]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]

Bye the bye, you name a specific religion by naming Atheists...

I see you've decided to dip your toe back into debate. Debate requires one to support one's claims with evidence sufficient to support those claims. Can you present any to support your claim above?

I'm not debating anything, what have I said that has you confused? That Atheism is a (horrors) religion?
No problem;
A religion is the congregation of those with the same or similar beliefs. Usually having a name, such as Jewish, Southern Baptists, American Atheists, etc...
See? No debate, simple definition tells all.
It's all about the 'beliefs'.

[Purple Knight]

Bye the bye, you name a specific religion by naming Atheists, but then after the 'vs' there was religion in general, of which Atheists are a feature. The question seems skewed.

Are you saying that atheism is a religion? What I mean to oppose here is believing in something that grounds morality, versus believing that morality can just exist and be ungrounded. It's not a matter of whether atheism counts as a religion or not.

See, if you say, "Morality is morality because god says," then that's not very moral. Why god and not me? Because god is powerful? Then that's just might-makes-right. Because god is perfectly moral? Well then you just said morality was ungrounded and god just happens to know better about it. So see below.

Now if you say, "Morality is morality and it just is," then that's not very moral either. Who gets to decide what it is if two people disagree? God? Well then, see above.

A religion is the congregation of those with the same or similar beliefs. Usually having a name, such as Jewish, Southern Baptists, American Atheists, etc...

I have no problem using this definition.

[nameless]

Bye the bye, you name a specific religion by naming Atheists, but then after the 'vs' there was religion in general, of which Atheists are a feature. The question seems skewed.

"Are you saying that atheism is a religion?"
~~~ Yes, I'm saying that Atheism is a religion. I know this was not your original intent, but I was compelled to point out the apparent flaw in the way you worded your question. It wasn't particularly important.

"What I mean to oppose here is believing in something that grounds morality, versus believing that morality can just exist and be ungrounded."
~~~ What I 'oppose' is the illness of 'belief' in general. It matters not a bean what you 'believe', the problem is that you caught the belief in the first place; it and it will eat holes in your brain, greatly reducing any ability left for critical thought.
By 'grounding morality' I assume you are imagining that there is some "objective" Perspective of 'judgment'?
I'd be careful of that one as Blasphemy is the attributing of one's own hatreds to God(-s Word)!

"See, if you say, "Morality is morality because god says," then that's not very moral. Why god and not me? Because god is powerful? Then that's just might-makes-right. Because god is perfectly moral? Well then you just said morality was ungrounded and god just happens to know better about it. So see below.

Now if you say, "Morality is morality and it just is," then that's not very moral either. Who gets to decide what it is if two people disagree? God? Well then, see above."
~~~ It sounds like you are attempting a logical argument about something (morality) but you are not using logic/critical thought in your 'reasoning' as you are all about 'beliefs' here, which are not as picky about what they eat (as long as it isn't threatening, it'll do, doesn't have to be 'rational').
I'd say that 'morality' exists because there are unSaved judgmental people 'existing'.
I don't get the problem here?
Judgmental/moral people come in every size, shape, color, stink, intellect...
except Saved! (smiley face)

A religion is the congregation of those with the same or similar beliefs. Usually having a name, such as Jewish, Southern Baptists, American Atheists, etc...

"I have no problem using this definition."
~~~ Thanks, it was a revelation.

[help3434]

~~~ Yes, I'm saying that Atheism is a religion.

Its not though. Neither is theism. You are making a category error.

[nameless]

~~~ Yes, I'm saying that Atheism is a religion.

Its not though.

I love how you bypassed any rational discussion and jumped right into mere naysaying!
Can I play?;
"Is so!"

Neither is theism. You are making a category error.

If theism is a group who believes in God, then it is a religion, an umbrella, under which slight differences in beliefs give rise to various 'factions'.
I make no error.
But perhaps I have responded with too much info considering your "because I say so!" style of discussion.

[William]

~~~ Yes, I'm saying that Atheism is a religion.

Its not though. Neither is theism. You are making a category error.

It is generally understood that organized religion derives from theism and that one can be "religious" in regards to taking one's position of belief (or lack of belief) "religiously" but that this in itself isn't what defines a religion or being religious.

[help3434]

[Replying to nameless in post #145]

What is the point of making the term "religion" so broad that you would label those two broad descriptors as religions in of the themselves? There can be theistic religions and atheistic religions, but theism and atheism themselves are not religions. That is the category error.

[nameless]

~~~ Yes, I'm saying that Atheism is a religion.

Its not though. Neither is theism. You are making a category error.

It is generally understood that organized religion derives from theism and that one can be "religious" in regards to taking one's position of belief (or lack of belief) "religiously" but that this in itself isn't what defines a religion or being religious.

What is "generally understood" is delusion and appearances being accepted as 'Reality'. That is no way to begin a discussion with me and maintain credibility. Further, it is the fallacy of 'appeal to numbers', 'fallacy ad populum'.
My studies have disclosed that the simplest definition (thanks Occam's Razor) of religion is;
"A religion is the congregation of those infected with the same or similar beliefs."
So far, all religions have names, but that doesn't mean that one cannot.
You use the word 'religion' 5 times, with varying definitions implied.
Now you have a good definition of the meaning of religion I refer to when I use the term..

[William]

[Replying to nameless in post #148]

"A religion is the congregation of those infected with the same or similar beliefs."

Your particular definition of religion certainly supports the assertion that the majority of human beings are religious, but how is that therefore, relevant to any position in particular (including either theism or atheism). Does that somehow make atheism and theism the same?

[nameless]

[Replying to nameless in post #145]

What is the point of making the term "religion" so broad that you would label those two broad descriptors as religions in of the themselves? There can be theistic religions and atheistic religions, but theism and atheism themselves are not religions. That is the category error.

Truth is all-inclusive. Good definitions cover the most area without getting hung up on 'local politics'.
Atheism is a religion according to the definition that I brought forward, as is Xtianity... I never offered that 'theism' is a religion as 'believers in God' usually fall into one or another strains of the belief.
If your only belief is that there is a God, and there are others sharing it, then it is, too, a religion. But the "I believe in God" belief is usually subsumed in the local varietal; Xtianity, Catholic, Hindu, Buddhist...
Yes, there are many 'strains' of religion and, like it or not, Atheism is one. Of course Atheists would deny this, naturally, as vehemently as any Xtian arguing that Jesus is necessary for Salvation! Defend the belief at all costs!
We focus from the overall reality down to all the dualities, all the subsets. You can argue the subsets all day (not rationally, of course), but not the overarching complete 'set' that is religion, and it is all based on belief infections!
Unless, until the 'religious' graduates to Mystic.