JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[JehovahsWitness]

Adam Clark understand that Jesus the Messiah is God...

Then Adam Clark is wrong. The Messiah is appointed by God he is nit Almighty God himself.

[Capbook]

Adam Clark understand that Jesus the Messiah is God...

Then Adam Clark is wrong. The Messiah is appointed by God he is nit Almighty God himself.

I prefer on Clark, he wrote books used by many.
Adam Clarke's Bible Commentary is a must if you desire to study the Word of God deeper and gain different perspectives. (quoted online)

[onewithhim]

And even the prior verse 3 says Jesus is God.
Barnes and Adam Clark believes that Jesus is equal with Father and of the same essence with the Father.

Hebrews 1:3
The drift of the argument is, to show his dignity as "he has spoken to us" (Heb 1:1), and not in the period antecedent to his incarnation. It is to show his claims to our reverence as sent from God-the last and greatest of the messengers which God bas sent to man. But, then it is a description of him "as he actually is" - the incarnate Son of God; the equal of the Father in human flesh;
(from Barnes' Notes)

Who has spoken to us in verse 1? It is God, not Jesus. In verse two it states that God has spoken to us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things. There is nothing to tell us that Jesus is the equal of the Father. If Jesus is God, why would he have to be appointed by anyone? He would already have the privilege. Someone's imagination has taken off into left field.

You did not address verse 3's understanding of Barnes and Clark that describes Jesus as equal of the Father.

Yes I did, on one of these threads that you participated in. I got a little tired of repeating myself on every thread. Barnes' and Clark's opinions don't jive with the truth of the matter. I see you don't want to address my post above.

You state that in verse 1 and 2 "there is nothing to tell us that Jesus is the equal of the Father". But in verse 3 there is.
"Adam Clarke's commentary is a valuable resource for Christians seeking a deeper understanding of the Scriptures". (quoted online.)
"Charles Spurgeon recommended Barnes' notes, calling them “Thoroughly good.”(quote online)

Is it not good to seek deeper understanding of the Scriptures?

That's what I say to you.

There is not anything in verse 3 to indicate that the Father and Son are equal. It says that Jesus is the exact representation of the Father, the Father's image. An image is not the thing that it is reflecting. And Jesus sat down at his Father's right hand, his Father being called "the Majesty." It is clear that Jesus is subordinate to the Father. This doesn't take anything away from Jesus. Being the Son of God is a high honor. He is just not God, but God's reflection.

.

Jesus is God, I wonder how would you interpret this again.
Rom 9:5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
NIV

Nope. Read the OP again. Can you answer those points? The KJV says : "Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever." (Romans 9:5, KJV) Whoever looks at that and thinks that it means that Christ is God already believes in the idea that Jesus is God. Someone else could get another meaning from it, that God blessed Christ who is "over all." God gave Christ the position of being over all. That is true, but he is not God.

Young's Literal Translation puts it this way---not saying that Christ is God, as well. "Whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen." Can it not mean, again, that God blessed the Christ? Not that Christ is God.

The NASB: "Whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever."

This verse does not mean that Jesus is God.

The margin in the NIV, which you quoted, says that these words can be entered instead of "Christ who is God": Christ who is over all. They admitted that their translation could be in error, and it doesn't say that Christ is God. You don't like reading margins, do you?

Adam Clark understand that Jesus the Messiah is God, and even more clear in God's Word Translation.
Romans 9:5
[And of whom, as concerning the flesh Christ came] These ancestors were the more renowned, as being the progenitors of the human nature of the MESSIAH. Christ, the Messiah,
kata sarka, according to the flesh, sprang from them. But this Messiah was more than man, he is God over all; the very Being who gave them being, though he appeared to receive a being from them.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary)

Rom 9:5
5 The Messiah is descended from their ancestors according to his human nature. The Messiah is God over everything, forever blessed. Amen.
(from GOD'S WORD Copyright © 1995 by God's Word to the Nations Bible Society. All rights reserved.)

Clarke, and everyone else who believes that Christ is God, gets that idea from a handful of unclear verses that can be dismantled easily. The verses are confusing in some cases, such as Romans 9:5 and Philippians 2:6. There is not solid reasoning with the idea that Jesus is God. The majority of translations do not say that Christ is "God over all." (Even the NIV states in a footnote that it could read "Christ who is over all," leaving out "God.")

[onewithhim]

Adam Clark understand that Jesus the Messiah is God...

Then Adam Clark is wrong. The Messiah is appointed by God he is nit Almighty God himself.

I prefer on Clark, he wrote books used by many.
Adam Clarke's Bible Commentary is a must if you desire to study the Word of God deeper and gain different perspectives. (quoted online)

You would be wise to read Truth in Translation by Jason BeDuhn, who is not affiliated with any religion. He tells it like it is, right from the Greek.

[Capbook]

Who has spoken to us in verse 1? It is God, not Jesus. In verse two it states that God has spoken to us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things. There is nothing to tell us that Jesus is the equal of the Father. If Jesus is God, why would he have to be appointed by anyone? He would already have the privilege. Someone's imagination has taken off into left field.

You did not address verse 3's understanding of Barnes and Clark that describes Jesus as equal of the Father.

Yes I did, on one of these threads that you participated in. I got a little tired of repeating myself on every thread. Barnes' and Clark's opinions don't jive with the truth of the matter. I see you don't want to address my post above.

You state that in verse 1 and 2 "there is nothing to tell us that Jesus is the equal of the Father". But in verse 3 there is.
"Adam Clarke's commentary is a valuable resource for Christians seeking a deeper understanding of the Scriptures". (quoted online.)
"Charles Spurgeon recommended Barnes' notes, calling them “Thoroughly good.”(quote online)

Is it not good to seek deeper understanding of the Scriptures?

That's what I say to you.

There is not anything in verse 3 to indicate that the Father and Son are equal. It says that Jesus is the exact representation of the Father, the Father's image. An image is not the thing that it is reflecting. And Jesus sat down at his Father's right hand, his Father being called "the Majesty." It is clear that Jesus is subordinate to the Father. This doesn't take anything away from Jesus. Being the Son of God is a high honor. He is just not God, but God's reflection.

.

Jesus is God, I wonder how would you interpret this again.
Rom 9:5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
NIV

Nope. Read the OP again. Can you answer those points? The KJV says : "Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever." (Romans 9:5, KJV) Whoever looks at that and thinks that it means that Christ is God already believes in the idea that Jesus is God. Someone else could get another meaning from it, that God blessed Christ who is "over all." God gave Christ the position of being over all. That is true, but he is not God.

Young's Literal Translation puts it this way---not saying that Christ is God, as well. "Whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen." Can it not mean, again, that God blessed the Christ? Not that Christ is God.

The NASB: "Whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever."

This verse does not mean that Jesus is God.

The margin in the NIV, which you quoted, says that these words can be entered instead of "Christ who is God": Christ who is over all. They admitted that their translation could be in error, and it doesn't say that Christ is God. You don't like reading margins, do you?

Adam Clark understand that Jesus the Messiah is God, and even more clear in God's Word Translation.
Romans 9:5
[And of whom, as concerning the flesh Christ came] These ancestors were the more renowned, as being the progenitors of the human nature of the MESSIAH. Christ, the Messiah,
kata sarka, according to the flesh, sprang from them. But this Messiah was more than man, he is God over all; the very Being who gave them being, though he appeared to receive a being from them.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary)

Rom 9:5
5 The Messiah is descended from their ancestors according to his human nature. The Messiah is God over everything, forever blessed. Amen.
(from GOD'S WORD Copyright © 1995 by God's Word to the Nations Bible Society. All rights reserved.)

Clarke, and everyone else who believes that Christ is God, gets that idea from a handful of unclear verses that can be dismantled easily. The verses are confusing in some cases, such as Romans 9:5 and Philippians 2:6. There is not solid reasoning with the idea that Jesus is God. The majority of translations do not say that Christ is "God over all." (Even the NIV states in a footnote that it could read "Christ who is over all," leaving out "God.")

Do you believe worshiping a non god sin or not?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Capbook in post #1625]

Worshipping any one or thing other than the Father (Jehovah) is sinning. He is the Most High (Psalm 83:18, KJV) Jesus said to worship the Father only (Luke 4:8, quoting from Deuteronomy 10:20,21), and he also said that we must get to know the Father if we want eternal life (John 17:3).

[Capbook]

[Replying to Capbook in post #1625]

Worshipping any one or thing other than the Father (Jehovah) is sinning. He is the Most High (Psalm 83:18, KJV) Jesus said to worship the Father only (Luke 4:8, quoting from Deuteronomy 10:20,21), and he also said that we must get to know the Father if we want eternal life (John 17:3).

The disciples worship Jesus, do they sinned worshiping Jesus? (If Jesus is not a true God)
Matt 28:17
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
KJV

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to Capbook in post #1625]

Worshipping any one or thing other than the Father (Jehovah) is sinning. He is the Most High (Psalm 83:18, KJV) Jesus said to worship the Father only (Luke 4:8, quoting from Deuteronomy 10:20,21), and he also said that we must get to know the Father if we want eternal life (John 17:3).

The disciples worship Jesus...

No they didn't worship Jesus they paid hommage /obeisance to Jesus.


MATTHEW 28:17

New World Translation
When they saw him, they did obeisance, but some doubted

Weymouth New Testament
There they saw Him and prostrated themselves before Him. Yet some doubted.

World English Bible
When they saw him, they bowed down to him; but some doubted.

Young's Literal Translation
and having seen him, they bowed to him, but some did waver

Matthew 28:17 — 1890 Darby Bible (DARBY)
17 And when they saw him, they did homage to him: but some doubted

FURTHER READING : https://www.jehovah.to/xlation/wo.html

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Capbook in post #1625]

Worshipping any one or thing other than the Father (Jehovah) is sinning. He is the Most High (Psalm 83:18, KJV) Jesus said to worship the Father only (Luke 4:8, quoting from Deuteronomy 10:20,21), and he also said that we must get to know the Father if we want eternal life (John 17:3).

The disciples worship Jesus, do they sinned worshiping Jesus? (If Jesus is not a true God)
Matt 28:17
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
KJV

"Worship" can also mean merely showing respect and honor to an individual. We don't worship or honor Jesus as God Almighty. We have great respect for him.

[Capbook]

[Replying to Capbook in post #1625]

Worshipping any one or thing other than the Father (Jehovah) is sinning. He is the Most High (Psalm 83:18, KJV) Jesus said to worship the Father only (Luke 4:8, quoting from Deuteronomy 10:20,21), and he also said that we must get to know the Father if we want eternal life (John 17:3).

The disciples worship Jesus...

No they didn't worship Jesus they paid hommage /obeisance to Jesus.


MATTHEW 28:17

New World Translation
When they saw him, they did obeisance, but some doubted

Weymouth New Testament
There they saw Him and prostrated themselves before Him. Yet some doubted.

World English Bible
When they saw him, they bowed down to him; but some doubted.

Young's Literal Translation
and having seen him, they bowed to him, but some did waver

Matthew 28:17 — 1890 Darby Bible (DARBY)
17 And when they saw him, they did homage to him: but some doubted

FURTHER READING : https://www.jehovah.to/xlation/wo.html

The original Greek word of worship in that verse is proskuneoo, proskunoo;
The same used in John 4:23

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
KJV