Jesus Christ has a God that he worships

[onewithhim]

Jesus said that we all must love Jehovah our God and worship only Him. He stated clearly that his Father was the only true God (John 17:3); he didn't say that we are the only true God. In many places in the Scriptures he calls the Father "my God."

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3, KJV)

"Jesus saith unto her [Mary], Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father, but go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God. (John 20:17, KJV)

"At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34, KJV)

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall no more go out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12, KJV)

I think Jesus wants us to recognize that his Father, Jehovah, is God, and he is God's Son. (John 10:36) What do you make of this?

[The Tanager]

So you claim Moses shone but Jesus is a radiant light that does not shine? Is that what you are saying?

No. During the Exodus, the Shekinah (radiant light which, as light, obviously shines) was God’s presence and that Moses, from being in God’s presence, shined as a reflection (although it would slowly fade away). There are two things one could be compared to here: (1) the radiant light itself and (2) Moses’ face reflecting that radiance. Paul compares Jesus to (1), not (2).

The Greek word is charakter, which is an engraving, figuratively an exact impression which also reflects inner character.

Correct. So?

So…it’s not “represent,” but a different concept.

So how can you claim that those same Jewish Christians had no notion of greater and lesser elohim (rendered by inspired writers as theos) ?

Because their notion of distinction was true and false theos, not real ones that were compared as some being greater theos than others that were lesser theos.

Why not? What does it say? What is being done to the Lamb? Obeisance?

REVELATION 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever

Okay, I guess I should have asked “what does it mean”? Let’s try a different way to draw this out of you. Do you think this passage speaks of the creatures worshiping the One sitting on the throne?

[JehovahsWitness]

So you claim Moses shone but Jesus is a radiant light that does not shine? Is that what you are saying?

No...

Okay so does Jesus shine or does Jesus not shine? (It's a simple enough question)

So…it’s not “represent,” but a different concept.

And the point the concept (however you understand it) supports.... is ?

Because their notion of distinction was true and false...

But that is not what you just admitted to... You concede that first century Jewish Christians had a notion of

[1] A Supreme God (elohim/theos)
[2]false gods (elohim/theos)
[3]angelic gods (elohim/theos)
[4]human gods (elohim/theos)

Do you think this passage speaks of the creatures worshiping the One sitting on the throne?

What do *I* think? ... Well, I cannot go beyond scripture but I can say scripturally that any act of praise and devotion directed towards Almighty God can be considered part of worship.

[kjw47]

It seems to much to ask a trinitarian to believe Jesus, the one they claim to be following. Jesus is 100% in subjection to his God and Father. The Father commands him. John 15:10--Jesus says --If you observe( obey) my commandments you will remain in my love, just as i have observed( obeyed) the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.---All can clearly see if Jesus didn't obey his Fathers commandments he wouldn't remain in his Fathers love.--BELIEVE JESUS trinitarians, you are being mislead.
The Father is greater than i--a quote from Jesus.

[The Tanager]

Okay so does Jesus shine or does Jesus not shine? (It's a simple enough question)

Paul is applying a metaphorical image to Jesus, so He doesn’t shine physically. Paul could have applied (1) the metaphorical image of the radiant light itself or (2) the metaphorical image of Moses’ reflecting that light. Paul chose (1).

And the point the concept (however you understand it) supports.... is ?

That your principle that “that which represents is distinct from that which is represented” doesn’t apply to what is said about Jesus’ relationship to the Father in Hebrews 1:3 since it doesn’t use the concept our English 'represent' picks out.

But that is not what you just admitted to... You concede that first century Jewish Christians had a notion of


[1] A Supreme God (elohim/theos)
[2]false gods (elohim/theos)
[3]angelic gods (elohim/theos)
[4]human gods (elohim/theos)

No, you erroneously think I admitted to that because you didn’t grasp what I meant when I said:

“(1) Yes
(2) Yes
(3) Yes
(4) Yes

But there are only 3 senses of the word (1-3). (4) is not a different sense. It’s comparing those humans to one of the 3 senses of the word. So, which sense (1, 2, or 3) was Jesus applying that elohim to?”

Again, I believe that first century Jewish Christians had three notions associated with the term elohim. (a) Supreme God (which the Greeks translated with theos), (b) false gods (which the Greeks translated with theos, and (c) angels (which the Greeks translated as angelos. Jesus applied (b) to humans when commenting on Psalm 82; it wasn't a new notion, but an application of an old notion.

What do *I* think? ... Well, I cannot go beyond scripture but I can say scripturally that any act of praise and devotion directed towards Almighty God can be considered part of worship.

It’s a simple question about what scripture says. Does Rev 5:13 describe the the one sitting on the throne as receiving worship? Yes or no?

[JehovahsWitness]

Okay so does Jesus shine or does Jesus not shine? (It's a simple enough question)

Paul is applying a metaphorical image to Jesus, so He doesn’t shine physically.

I'm not asking if Jesus shines physically, I'm asking if the radiance [Greek: apaugasma ] Paul described is SHINY? It’s a simple enough question YES or NO?

source STRONGS #541
*EFFULGENCE: the ability to shine brightly (https://dictionary.cambridge.org )

... Hebrews 1:3 since it doesn’t use the concept our English 'represent'

So, if Hebrews does not use the concept our English 'represent' why did you bring up the English expression 'to represent' oneself in court.

source Strings #5481

Jesus applied (b) to humans when commenting on Psalm 82

I did not ask what Jesus "applied" to the human judges, I asked "did Jesus CALL human Judges "ehohim/theos" It's a simple enough question YES or NO?

PSALM 82: 1, 6
God takes his place in the divine assembly ... “--> *I* <-- have said, ‘You are gods, all of you are sons of the Most High" (compare 2 Chronicles 19:6)

It’s a simple question about what scripture says. Does Rev 5:13 describe the the one sitting on the throne as receiving worship? Yes or no?

Well it doesn't say but in my personal view.... yes verse 13 is describing the one sitting on the throne as receiving worship.

[Capbook]

It seems to much to ask a trinitarian to believe Jesus, the one they claim to be following. Jesus is 100% in subjection to his God and Father. The Father commands him. John 15:10--Jesus says --If you observe( obey) my commandments you will remain in my love, just as i have observed( obeyed) the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.---All can clearly see if Jesus didn't obey his Fathers commandments he wouldn't remain in his Fathers love.--BELIEVE JESUS trinitarians, you are being mislead.
The Father is greater than i--a quote from Jesus.

Calvin's understanding of that phrase, that it must have referred to his human nature and also he also believe of Jesus eternal Divinity.

John 14:28
For the Father is greater than I. This passage has been tortured in various ways. The Aryans, in order to prove that Christ is some sort of inferior God, argued that he is less than the Father. The orthodox Fathers, to remove all ground for such a calumny, said that this must have referred to his human nature; but as the Aryans abused this testimony, so the reply given by the Fathers to their objection was neither correct nor appropriate; for Christ does not now speak either of his human nature, or of his eternal Divinity, but, accommodating himself to our weakness, places himself between God and us; and, indeed, as it has not been granted to us to reach the height of God, Christ descended to us, that he might raise us to it. You ought to have rejoiced, he says, because I return to the Father; for this is the ultimate object at which you ought to aim. By these words he does not show in what respect he differs in himself from the Father, but why he descended to us; and that was that he might unite us to God; for until we have reached that point, we are, as it were, in the middle of the course.
(from Calvin's Commentaries)

[JehovahsWitness]

It seems to much to ask a trinitarian to believe Jesus, the one they claim to be following. Jesus is 100% in subjection to his God and Father. The Father commands him. John 15:10--Jesus says --If you observe( obey) my commandments you will remain in my love, just as i have observed( obeyed) the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.---All can clearly see if Jesus didn't obey his Fathers commandments he wouldn't remain in his Fathers love.--BELIEVE JESUS trinitarians, you are being mislead.
The Father is greater than i--a quote from Jesus.

Calvin's understanding of that phrase, that it must have referred to his human nature and also he also believe of Jesus eternal Divinity.

Who cares what that man believed?! That's just his opinion: if any opinion contradicts scripture it should be rejected.

[kjw47]

It seems to much to ask a trinitarian to believe Jesus, the one they claim to be following. Jesus is 100% in subjection to his God and Father. The Father commands him. John 15:10--Jesus says --If you observe( obey) my commandments you will remain in my love, just as i have observed( obeyed) the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.---All can clearly see if Jesus didn't obey his Fathers commandments he wouldn't remain in his Fathers love.--BELIEVE JESUS trinitarians, you are being mislead.
The Father is greater than i--a quote from Jesus.

Calvin's understanding of that phrase, that it must have referred to his human nature and also he also believe of Jesus eternal Divinity.

John 14:28
For the Father is greater than I. This passage has been tortured in various ways. The Aryans, in order to prove that Christ is some sort of inferior God, argued that he is less than the Father. The orthodox Fathers, to remove all ground for such a calumny, said that this must have referred to his human nature; but as the Aryans abused this testimony, so the reply given by the Fathers to their objection was neither correct nor appropriate; for Christ does not now speak either of his human nature, or of his eternal Divinity, but, accommodating himself to our weakness, places himself between God and us; and, indeed, as it has not been granted to us to reach the height of God, Christ descended to us, that he might raise us to it. You ought to have rejoiced, he says, because I return to the Father; for this is the ultimate object at which you ought to aim. By these words he does not show in what respect he differs in himself from the Father, but why he descended to us; and that was that he might unite us to God; for until we have reached that point, we are, as it were, in the middle of the course.
(from Calvin's Commentaries)

Calvin is wrong. Jesus isn't God, He wasn't called God at John 1:1 in the Greek lexicons he is called god small g.

[The Tanager]

I'm not asking if Jesus shines physically, I'm asking if the radiance [Greek: apaugasma ] Paul described is SHINY? It’s a simple enough question YES or NO?

Jesus is said to be the radiance in Hebrews 1:3, so asking if the radiance is shiny is asking if Jesus is shiny. Paul used an image that was physically shiny and applied it metaphorically to Jesus.

So, if Hebrews does not use the concept our English 'represent' why did you bring up the English expression 'to represent' oneself in court.

You brought up the English ‘represent’ in saying that the Shekinah light represented God’s presence. My response has been that (1) the word isn’t really our ‘represent’, but that (2) if you want to use that English word, we need to note the different senses of ‘represent’ that exist even in English. Images (like a crown) can represent God when we are trying to point to some different truth about Him (like His authority). That’s one sense. That’s not the sense with the Shekinah glory. The fire and cloud were not metaphors used to really talk about some aspect of God. They ‘represented’ God’s actual presence. That’s the sense of ‘represent’ (if you want to use that term) Paul uses of Jesus about God.

I did not ask what Jesus "applied" to the human judges, I asked "did Jesus CALL human Judges "ehohim/theos" It's a simple enough question YES or NO?

I already answered yes. I then made an additional point that is relevant to the discussion we are having.

Well it doesn't say but in my personal view.... yes verse 13 is describing the one sitting on the throne as receiving worship.

Okay. Then why don’t you think verse 13 is describing the Lamb as also receiving worship?

[Capbook]

It seems to much to ask a trinitarian to believe Jesus, the one they claim to be following. Jesus is 100% in subjection to his God and Father. The Father commands him. John 15:10--Jesus says --If you observe( obey) my commandments you will remain in my love, just as i have observed( obeyed) the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.---All can clearly see if Jesus didn't obey his Fathers commandments he wouldn't remain in his Fathers love.--BELIEVE JESUS trinitarians, you are being mislead.
The Father is greater than i--a quote from Jesus.

Calvin's understanding of that phrase, that it must have referred to his human nature and also he also believe of Jesus eternal Divinity.

Who cares what that man believed?! That's just his opinion: if any opinion contradicts scripture it should be rejected.

The Word of God is true, but the interpretation therein matters. There is what they call exegesis or eisegesis.
Who would decide then. Another is from Adam Clark Commentary, says, to reconcile that statement with the most orthodox notion of the Godhead of Christ; as he is repeatedly speaking of his divine and of his human nature.

John 14:28
[My Father is greater than I.] In John 14:24, Christ tells his disciples that the Father had sent him: i.e. in his quality of Messiah, he was sent by the Father to instruct, and to save mankind. Now, as the sender is greater than the sent, John 13:16, so in this sense is the Father greater than the Son; and in this sense was the passage understood by Origen, Jerome, Novatian, and Vigilius, who read the text thus: The Father,
ho pempsas, who sent me, is greater than I. It certainly requires very little argument, and no sophistry, to reconcile this saying with the most orthodox notion of the Godhead of Christ; as he is repeatedly speaking of his divine and of his human nature. Of the former he says, I and the Father are one, John 10:30;
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary)