Sentient Earth - Is the planet mindful and would this explain why there is life in earth?

[The Tanager]

In another thread, William and I were talking about morality and we got off on some topics like the one above. We decided to have that conversation here. This is the first question I'd like to look at. I do think life on earth is only ultimately explained via some kind of mind (or personal agent or creator). I think this belief is rationally supported by various arguments such as the Kalam cosmological argument, the fine-tuning argument, the moral argument, the applicability of mathematics, and the argument from consciousness. I do not think these arguments lead us to the conclusion that a sentient Earth is the ultimate mind behind it all or that it is a mindful link in the chain of creation. I don't think these arguments necessarily rule out a sentient Earth either (although I haven't given this point more than a surface consideration). But logical possibility is not a deciding test of truth, so we need to go further and find reasoning to lead us to the planet actually being mindful. Currently, I see no good reason to believe our planet is mindful.

So, William, I'd love to hear why you think we are rationally warranted in asserting that the planet is mindful and at least part of the chain of creation that led to us. In that other thread you seemed to just assert the Earth as a mindful example and thought that I was doing the same with the immaterial Mind behind creation. If I was that would certainly be a double standard, but I think the above arguments support an immaterial Mind behind creation. What arguments do you think support a sentient Earth?

[William]

Post #33 is my response to post #32. To add to that, I am happy to drop those examples altogether as (presently) irrelevant to the debate re the ones which followed, which I think are - at least more so - relevant to the discussion.

Or. We can adjourn for the time being and perhaps discuss one of the other subjects, in another thread in the warmth of another fireside.

Okay. Which examples do you feel are relevant?

Overall I approached this thread with in mind that there could be open discussion on the possibility and giving my insights (as contribution) as to why I think a sentient earth can be a contender theory and wrote on the question of how such could possibly affect/effect human minds - minds which decided it was not off the list of plausible things to believe as true.

I have given some examples I consider evidence, for possible discussion.

[The Tanager]

I have given some examples I consider evidence, for possible discussion.

What examples? In post 32 I mentioned every example I honestly saw. If you had other ones, please just restate them so we can discuss those instead of the irrelevant ones I saw/misunderstood.

[William]

I have given some examples I consider evidence, for possible discussion.

What examples? In post 32 I mentioned every example I honestly saw. If you had other ones, please just restate them so we can discuss those instead of the irrelevant ones I saw/misunderstood.

I have already mentioned the post Jason - post #33. Have a read and see if there is anything therein, you would like to discuss.

[The Tanager]

These examples provide evidence of cognitive abilities and behaviors across various species, indicating a continuum of consciousness and mindfulness within the forms inhabited by TCM, highlighting the intricate interplay between consciousness, cognition, and behavior across different forms of life, offering glimpses into the evolving journey of TCM within its own Mind-Field.

How do they indicate a continuum that fits better with your theory than with Christianity, naturalism, etc.?

[William]

These examples provide evidence of cognitive abilities and behaviors across various species, indicating a continuum of consciousness and mindfulness within the forms inhabited by TCM, highlighting the intricate interplay between consciousness, cognition, and behavior across different forms of life, offering glimpses into the evolving journey of TCM within its own Mind-Field.

How do they indicate a continuum that fits better with your theory than with Christianity, naturalism, etc.?

"A continuum is something that keeps on going, changing slowly over time, like the continuum of the four seasons. In addition to meaning "a whole made up of many parts," continuum, pronounced "kon-TIN-yoo-um," can describe a range that is always present."

Do you mean - in what way is the idea of a mindful planet in a universe which exist within The Creator Mind better than "Christianity, naturalism, etc", or are you meaning something else?

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #32]

Okay. Here is the reasoning you’ve offered (as I understand it) for the Earth being mindful:

You misunderstand. Those (1) (2) and (3) are possible outcomes if folk accepted that the Earth is mindful.

[William]

Summary. Post 1
In the post, Jason discusses his belief that life on Earth can be ultimately explained by some form of mind or creator. He outlines various arguments supporting this belief, including the Kalam cosmological argument, the fine-tuning argument, the moral argument, the applicability of mathematics, and the argument from consciousness. However, he clarifies that while these arguments support the existence of a creator, they do not necessarily imply that Earth itself is a sentient entity. Jason admits to not having thoroughly considered the possibility of Earth being sentient but emphasizes that logical possibility is not sufficient for truth. He invites William to provide reasoning for why Earth might be considered mindful, contrasting it with his own belief in an immaterial Mind behind creation.

Summary. Post 2
In William's reply to Jason, he begins by expressing appreciation for starting the thread and hopes for insightful interaction. He agrees with Jason that Earth cannot be the Ultimate Mind but suggests it is a mindful link in the hierarchy of creator minds, serving as a connection between non-god sentient beings and The Creator Mind. William challenges Jason to consider this perspective more deeply.
He acknowledges that logical possibility plays a role in Jason's belief in The Creator Mind but questions the "test of truth" applied beyond this. Their main difference lies in whether a hierarchical structure of mindful entities is necessary in relation to The Creator Mind, which William believes in but Jason questions.
Both agree on The Creator Mind as the source of all existence, but William argues for the inclusion of mindful hierarchy in rational thinking, suggesting its absence contributes to human disconnection from the planet. He also notes the feminine aspect often overlooked in religious presentations of The Creator Mind.
William proposes that Jason clarify his belief in an immaterial Mind behind creation, highlighting potential differences in their conceptions of The Creator Mind and its relationship to the universe. He suggests starting by explaining their differing views on whether the universe exists within or outside The Creator Mind.
In addition, William plans to use a third-party commentator (GPT) in the discussion and hopes for Jason's acceptance of this approach.

Summary. Post 3
William's presentation of the GPT's analysis helps contextualize Jason's initial points and sets the stage for a focused exploration of Earth's potential mindfulness. William is prompted to provide insight into which arguments resonate with him or offer additional perspectives on why he believes Earth possesses consciousness or mindfulness.
This request invites William to engage more deeply with the arguments presented by Jason and to articulate his own reasoning for attributing mindfulness to Earth. It encourages a collaborative examination of the topic, aiming to foster understanding and potentially uncover new insights.

William's reply offers a detailed perspective on Earth's potential mindfulness and its relationship to the Creator Mind. He emphasizes Earth's intermediary role in a hierarchy of mindful beings and underscores the importance of personal experiences and interpretations of philosophical arguments in belief formation.
William presents compelling reasons for considering Earth as mindful, citing potential societal and ecological benefits. He challenges traditional notions of the Creator Mind's immateriality, suggesting a perspective where the universe exists within it.
The differences between William and Jason's understandings of the Creator Mind likely stem from varying interpretations of philosophical concepts and personal beliefs. Despite these disparities, William engages in respectful dialogue, aiming to deepen understanding through thoughtful discussion. His responses reflect a nuanced understanding of consciousness, Earth's role in creation, and the Creator Mind.


Summary. Post 4
Jason appreciates William's contribution and reiterates the importance of moving beyond mere logical possibility in determining truth. He outlines his "test of truth" as grounded in philosophical reasoning supported by scientific and historical data. Jason cites various arguments, including the Kalam cosmological argument and the argument for the historicity of Jesus' resurrection, as foundational to his belief in the Creator God, particularly the Biblical God.
Regarding William's assertion about societal and ecological benefits as a test of truth, Jason questions the validity of this principle. He challenges the notion that such benefits inherently validate a belief's truthfulness, suggesting that societal and ecological considerations alone are not sufficient grounds for determining truth.
Jason proposes alternative perspectives, such as Biblical Christianity's view of caring for the Earth even if it were deemed mindless, and the notion that God's gender is not confined to masculine or feminine attributes.
Confirming his belief in an immaterial God and other non-material minds, Jason clarifies that he views God as a personal agent capable of thought, distinct from physical matter. This stance underscores his understanding of the Creator Mind as transcendent and distinct from the material universe.

[The Tanager]

"A continuum is something that keeps on going, changing slowly over time, like the continuum of the four seasons. In addition to meaning "a whole made up of many parts," continuum, pronounced "kon-TIN-yoo-um," can describe a range that is always present."

Do you mean - in what way is the idea of a mindful planet in a universe which exist within The Creator Mind better than "Christianity, naturalism, etc", or are you meaning something else?

I'm first asking how it better fits the continuum you are saying these examples indicate. Okay, how do these examples indicate "consciousness and mindfulness" is a (1) whole made up of parts (instead of various, distinct wholes), (2) that is always present, and (3) that changes over time?

[The Tanager]

You misunderstand. Those (1) (2) and (3) are possible outcomes if folk accepted that the Earth is mindful.

Well, I said (1) and (2) are possible outcomes if folk accepted that the Earth is mindful, so I didn't misunderstand those two. I did apparently misunderstand (3).

[William]

"A continuum is something that keeps on going, changing slowly over time, like the continuum of the four seasons. In addition to meaning "a whole made up of many parts," continuum, pronounced "kon-TIN-yoo-um," can describe a range that is always present."

Do you mean - in what way is the idea of a mindful planet in a universe which exist within The Creator Mind better than "Christianity, naturalism, etc", or are you meaning something else?

I'm first asking how it better fits the continuum you are saying these examples indicate.

I don't understand why you are asking this question. What "examples" are you talking about? Please post them so I have some idea - since there appears to be confusion.

Also - with bringing in the word "continuum" I am not sure what you are referring to as I haven't used the word myself, so maybe it is something GPT used or else something you have decided to use. Either way, I am unclear as to what you are speaking to re the discussion of the possibility of a mindful planet.

How do these examples indicate "consciousness and mindfulness" is a (1) whole made up of parts (instead of various, distinct wholes), (2) that is always present, and (3) that changes over time?

How does "Christianity and naturalism etc" accomplish this? Perhaps if you give examples I will better understand what it is you are asking.