Jesus Christ has a God that he worships

[onewithhim]

Jesus said that we all must love Jehovah our God and worship only Him. He stated clearly that his Father was the only true God (John 17:3); he didn't say that we are the only true God. In many places in the Scriptures he calls the Father "my God."

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3, KJV)

"Jesus saith unto her [Mary], Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father, but go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God. (John 20:17, KJV)

"At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34, KJV)

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall no more go out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12, KJV)

I think Jesus wants us to recognize that his Father, Jehovah, is God, and he is God's Son. (John 10:36) What do you make of this?

[JehovahsWitness]

1. How can Jesus share in the glory God had and has (John 17:5) if God shares His glory with no one (Isa 42:8)?.

YHWH never shares his glory as the Creator and supreme ruler of the universe but He does glorify (give/share glory) others when he uses them to represent Himself.
viewtopic.php?p=1147575#p1147575

2. How can Jesus pour out the spirit of God on his disciples (John 20:22) if he isn't God?

Jesus has been delegated ALL authority to do EVERYTHING God does Matthew 28:19 covers all actions ; there is nothing he has not been authorized to do. He there fore does not have to refer back to His Father as the source, as he has been given total autonomy.

3. How can Jesus give the right to forgive sins (John 20:23) if he isn't God?

Jesus has been delegated ALL authority to do EVERYTHING God does Matthew 28:19 covers all actions ; there is nothing he has not been authorized to do.

My point in response was that Jesus owns the authority

Yes. He "owns" it because he was given it by his superior. He is not the source of his own authority.

4. Why does Thomas call Jesus "my God" (John 20:28) and Jesus not correct him? What evidence do you have that the Jewish disciples, at this time, called honored, powerful people “god”?

John 10:34

5. Why does quoting the first line of a Psalm equate to a claim that "I'm not God"?

Because the Almighty does not have a God.

6. How can Jesus take titles reserved for God (first and last, the Ancient of Days), if he isn't God?

• There is no statement in scripture that Jesus is the Ancient of Days.

• Many titles are shared between Jesus and God and even humans such as Father, Lord, even god without them being equal

.

7. How can Jesus receive worship, praise, honor, glory, and power with God, if he isn't God?

The passage in Rev 5:13 does not say they worshipped the Father and the Son . It says "they worshipped" WHO they worshipped is not stated.

8. Why does Jesus double down when accused of blasphemy (John 10:36)?

Jesus clarified making the explicit statement "I am God's son" The Pharisees falsely claimed that equalled equality with the Almighty.

[onewithhim]

Yes, we must deal with both groups of passages. The trinity is addressed every time Jesus says something about the Father who is God. It is important to view God in the correct manner. When Jesus says to the Father, "YOU are the only true God," this undermines the whole view of Jesus being God. The Scriptures I quoted show that Jesus is SUBJECT TO the Father, and this speaks volumes about any "trinity."

[onewithhim]

No. Perhaps you can simply answer the question: do you believe that the risen Christ, currently in heaven is equal in rank, power, age and authority to Almighty God The Father ? Yes or no.

JW

It does not appear that the risen Christ, currently in Heaven, has equal rank and the jury is out on the authority part.

He gave up those things (Phil 2:5-9) and whether he was given them back (fully), is the question.

However, whether he does or does not have equal rank/authority; neither has any bearing on whether he is equal in terms of nature, essence, and DIVINITY with God the Almighty Father...because he is.

Because YOU say so.

[onewithhim]

Jesus said that we all must love Jehovah our God and worship only Him.

Jesus never ever said "we all must love Jehovah our God and worship only Him."

Yes he did. Luke 4:8. He was quoting the Hebrew Scriptures where the Father's name appears instead of "LORD." (Deuteronomy 6:13 and 10:20.)

[onewithhim]

1. How can Jesus share in the glory God had and has (John 17:5) if God shares His glory with no one (Isa 42:8)?

The Hebrew ka-vohdh is most often translated as "glory," but originally meant "opinion or reputation." A couple of its senses are "honor" (Luke 14:10) and "splendor" (Luke 2:9; ICorinthians 15:40). As to the meaning of "glory" in relation to Jehovah God, the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Kittel explains: "If in relation to man(ka-vohdh) denotes that which makes him impressive and demands recognition, whether in terms of material possessions or striking (dignity or importance), in relation to God it implies that which makes God impressive to man."(Translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol.2, p.238) So "glory" may refer to an impressive evidence of God's almighty power.

Concerning Jesus....the Bible says that, at his first miracle, "he made his glory manifest." (John 2:11) "Glory" here refer to an impressive evidence of miraculous power identifying Jesus as the promised Messiah (John 11:40-44). Jesus prayed, on another occasion, "Father glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." Jesus used the term here to refer to the EXALTED STATE that he enjoyed in heaven before coming to the earth. In answer to that prayer, Jehovah "glorified" his Servant, Jesus, by resurrecting him and bringing him back into heaven (Acts 3:13-15). The glory that was seen at the transfiguration had to do with the regal magnificence that Jesus was to receive at his coming in Kingdom power (2Peter 1:16). So Jesus isn't usurping any glory that belonged to his Father, but was reflecting his Father's glory as kindness to him concerning his resurrection and ascention once again to heaven. And all this is impressive evidence of God's power. The term "glory" has various shades of meaning. Jesus' glory wasn't the same as the glory that belongs to Almighty God, but showed God's power in relation to his resurrection and return to heaven.

In John 17:5, Jesus prays that the Father would glorify him with the glory he had with him before creation. That doesn’t fit Kittel’s definition that it is what made Jesus impressive to man. It didn’t have anything to do with his resurrection and ascension because the world wasn’t even made it, much less Jesus’ incarnation, life, death, and resurrection. Jesus says he shares (”had with you”) glory with the Father, not that he has a different glory.

What glory did Jesus have?

Jesus said that previous to his time on earth he enjoyed glory. He did not say he enjoyed glory as the supreme ruler of the universe, or glory as Almighty God Himself, he simply said he had glory with / before / in his Father's presence. Jesus, as God's son and first creation reflects God's glory in that he is a representative of God (Heb 1:3)



Did Jesus not "share" God's Glory?

Some translations do refer to the glory Jesus "shared" with God or "the glory that he had with the Father" but none speak of them sharing God's glory or name as the Supreme ruler of the universe . Plus Jesus words do no do not say whose glory he shared. If someone says they shared or had a Pizza with the President can that not mean you shared your own with him rather he shared his with you? Further, did Jesus say the share was equal? Note 2 Thesselonians 2:14 says that Christ's brothers share in his glory; yet none of them can possibly claim equality with him (Jesus), much less claim the glory of God's firstborn (2 Pet 5:10b). Similarly, the Son "sharing" his own glory with the Father, does not mean he (Jesus) possessed the glory of the uncreated Almighty or that Jesus' glory was in equality to God's.

Hebrews doesn’t say he is a representative but an exact representation, an engraving, a mould, a copy of sorts. But how we interpret that doesn’t really help us with John’s intent. Jesus says he brought the Father glory by finishing his work, but then talks about a different glory, the one they both had together before the world began. If this glory is something non-divine about Jesus’ then why would God be sharing in it? No, it makes much more sense that Jesus is sharing in the Father’s glory.

In 2 Thess 2:14, the glory talked about relates to his disciples being sanctified and does require equality in that sense. The glory in John 17:5 also requires equality of some sort.

Final thought on #1: John 17:1-5 shows that Jesus is not equal to God because he ASKS God to give him glory. He is subordinate to his Father and relies on Him for everything.

Glory that they shared before creation; that’s equality. Then, through the incarnation, Jesus does subordinate his human nature to the Father because that is what a perfect human does, but only God can do something perfectly.

Jesus did things perfectly because he saw what the Father did and did likewise and, too, said what the Father told him to say. He was the "image" of the Father. (John 5:19; John 12:49,50; Colossians 1:15)

[The Tanager]

1. How can Jesus share in the glory God had and has (John 17:5) if God shares His glory with no one (Isa 42:8)?

But nog the source. The source of all true glory is the Almighty: that Jesus is a reflection of God's glory does not make him equal in rank or authority to the Father.

Hebrews doesn’t call him a reflection of God’s glory, but the radiance of the glory. In the Hebrew scriptures God is described as the radiance, the light, the fire, not just the source of it. The author of Hebrews then says Jesus sustains all things by His word (1:3), which is something God does in the Hebrew scriptures.


2. How can Jesus pour out the spirit of God on his disciples (John 20:22) if he isn't God?

Jesus has been delegated ALL authority to do EVERYTHING God does Matthew 28:19 covers all actions ; there is nothing he has not been authorized to do. He there fore does not have to refer back to His Father as the source, as he has been given total autonomy.

This doesn’t address what I have said. Jesus doesn’t say God is pouring out the Spirit, but He pours it out, although Joel 2:28 says God will pour it out.


3. How can Jesus give the right to forgive sins (John 20:23) if he isn't God?

My point in response was that Jesus owns the authority

Yes. He "owns" it because he was given it by his superior. He is not the source of his own authority.

Then why don’t the disciples own it in the same way, being given it to them by their superior? Why is Jesus’ owning it different and like God rather than humans?


4. Why does Thomas call Jesus "my God" (John 20:28) and Jesus not correct him?

You must have missed it: post #37 viewtopic.php?p=1147790#p1147790

No, I didn’t miss it. In post 41 I asked you if you were talking about John 10 or a different passage. You finally answered that in post 71. In John 10:34, Jesus quotes 82:6 and says the ‘gods’ there were those to whom the word of God came, but then distinguishes Himself from them. He’s not saying He’s a ‘god’ in that same way. No, He is claiming a unique place of the Son of God. He then says that his deeds back his claim up and they try to seize him for continued blasphemy.


5. Why does quoting the first line of a Psalm equate to a claim that "I'm not God"?

Because the Almighty does not have a God.

This doesn’t address what I’ve said. Jesus is clearly quoting Psalm 22 here. Quoting a Psalm doesn’t mean that person is directly answering the question “Are you God” in the negative.


6. How can Jesus take titles reserved for God (first and last, the Ancient of Days), if he isn't God?

There is no statement in scripture that Jesus is the Ancient of Days.

Many titles are shared between Jesus and God and even humans such as Father, Lord, even god without them being equal

There are some titles that aren’t shared, though. Christians didn’t call other entities God or “First and Last” or equate them with the Ancient of Days. And you didn’t address what I’ve said here. Jesus as “one like a son of man” is described in Revelations in the same way the Ancient of Days is described by Daniel.


7. How can Jesus receive worship, praise, honor, glory, and power with God, if he isn't God?

The passage in Rev 5:13 does not say they worshipped the Father and the Son . It says "they worshipped" WHO they worshipped is not stated.

It says: “Then I heard every creature–in heaven, on earth, under the earth, in the sea, and all that is in them–singing:

To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb be praise, honor, glory, and ruling power forever and ever!”

How is that not saying who they worshiped?

8. Why does Jesus double down when accused of blasphemy (John 10:36)?

Jesus clarified making the explicit statement "I am God's son" The Pharisees falsely claimed that equalled equality with the Almighty.

Jesus could have easily said, I’m not claiming equality with God by calling myself God’s son, calm down. He doesn’t. He says He is in the Father and the Father is in Him and to judge Him by His deeds.

[SiNcE_1985]

No. Perhaps you can simply answer the question: do you believe that the risen Christ, currently in heaven is equal in rank, power, age and authority to Almighty God The Father ? Yes or no.

JW

It does not appear that the risen Christ, currently in Heaven, has equal rank and the jury is out on the authority part.

He gave up those things (Phil 2:5-9) and whether he was given them back (fully), is the question.

However, whether he does or does not have equal rank/authority; neither has any bearing on whether he is equal in terms of nature, essence, and DIVINITY with God the Almighty Father...because he is.

Because YOU say so.

PM me.

[JehovahsWitness]

Hebrews doesn’t call him a reflection of God’s glory, but the radiance of the glory.

Yes, God's glory shines in Jesus. It's Gods glory (as in the original source) not Jesus' glory that shines in him

Jesus doesn’t say God is pouring out the Spirit, but He pours it out, although Joel 2:28 says God will pour it out.

Where in the bible does it say Jesus has to say "God is pouring out the Spirit" ? Jesus already said he has been given all authority, (Is there a part of "all authority" that is not covered by the word "all"? ) so obviously that would include the authority to direct God's spirit as he sees fit.

Then why don’t the disciples own it in the same way, being given it to them by their superior? Why is Jesus’ owning it different and like God rather than humans?

Because Jesus died for the world and God gave him a higher position than any other individual.

. In John 10:34, Jesus quotes 82:6 and says the ‘gods’ there were those to whom the word of God came, but then distinguishes Himself from them. He’s not saying He’s a ‘god’ in that same way. No, He is claiming a unique place of the Son of God.

Agreed. However your original challenge was that the disciples had no concept of greater and lesser gods. Read what you said ...

The disciples didn’t make distinctions between Almighty God and lesser Gods...

This doesn’t address what I’ve said. Jesus is clearly quoting Psalm 22 here. Quoting a Psalm doesn’t mean that person is directly answering the question “Are you God” in the negative.

So you believe that at the moment he was dying, Jesus was not at the time calling to his God but simply remembering that someone else did?

There are some titles that aren’t shared

Sure, and "first and last" is not one of them

Jesus as “one like a son of man” is described in Revelations in the same way the Ancient of Days is described by Daniel.

Irrelevant, they are different titles.

It says: “Then I heard every creature–in heaven, on earth, under the earth, in the sea, and all that is in them–singing: To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb be praise, honor, glory, and ruling power forever and ever!” How is that not saying who they worshiped?

BY not saying "and they worshipped the lamb"

Jesus could have easily said, I’m not claiming equality with God by calling myself God’s son, calm down. He doesn’t. He says He is in the Father and the Father is in Him and to judge Him by His deeds.

Jesus defense was perfect, he identified himself and his role in unity with God, without claiming equality. He evidently saw no need to say more. There is no reason to build a "theology of gaps" ( focusing on what Jesus did say not) what he did say was clear. The Pharisees were wrong.

[Capbook]

1. How can Jesus share in the glory God had and has (John 17:5) if God shares His glory with no one (Isa 42:8)?

The Hebrew ka-vohdh is most often translated as "glory," but originally meant "opinion or reputation." A couple of its senses are "honor" (Luke 14:10) and "splendor" (Luke 2:9; ICorinthians 15:40). As to the meaning of "glory" in relation to Jehovah God, the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Kittel explains: "If in relation to man(ka-vohdh) denotes that which makes him impressive and demands recognition, whether in terms of material possessions or striking (dignity or importance), in relation to God it implies that which makes God impressive to man."(Translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol.2, p.238) So "glory" may refer to an impressive evidence of God's almighty power.

Concerning Jesus....the Bible says that, at his first miracle, "he made his glory manifest." (John 2:11) "Glory" here refer to an impressive evidence of miraculous power identifying Jesus as the promised Messiah (John 11:40-44). Jesus prayed, on another occasion, "Father glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." Jesus used the term here to refer to the EXALTED STATE that he enjoyed in heaven before coming to the earth. In answer to that prayer, Jehovah "glorified" his Servant, Jesus, by resurrecting him and bringing him back into heaven (Acts 3:13-15). The glory that was seen at the transfiguration had to do with the regal magnificence that Jesus was to receive at his coming in Kingdom power (2Peter 1:16). So Jesus isn't usurping any glory that belonged to his Father, but was reflecting his Father's glory as kindness to him concerning his resurrection and ascention once again to heaven. And all this is impressive evidence of God's power. The term "glory" has various shades of meaning. Jesus' glory wasn't the same as the glory that belongs to Almighty God, but showed God's power in relation to his resurrection and return to heaven.

In John 17:5, Jesus prays that the Father would glorify him with the glory he had with him before creation. That doesn’t fit Kittel’s definition that it is what made Jesus impressive to man. It didn’t have anything to do with his resurrection and ascension because the world wasn’t even made it, much less Jesus’ incarnation, life, death, and resurrection. Jesus says he shares (”had with you”) glory with the Father, not that he has a different glory.

What glory did Jesus have?

Jesus said that previous to his time on earth he enjoyed glory. He did not say he enjoyed glory as the supreme ruler of the universe, or glory as Almighty God Himself, he simply said he had glory with / before / in his Father's presence. Jesus, as God's son and first creation reflects God's glory in that he is a representative of God (Heb 1:3)



Did Jesus not "share" God's Glory?

Some translations do refer to the glory Jesus "shared" with God or "the glory that he had with the Father" but none speak of them sharing God's glory or name as the Supreme ruler of the universe . Plus Jesus words do no do not say whose glory he shared. If someone says they shared or had a Pizza with the President can that not mean you shared your own with him rather he shared his with you? Further, did Jesus say the share was equal? Note 2 Thesselonians 2:14 says that Christ's brothers share in his glory; yet none of them can possibly claim equality with him (Jesus), much less claim the glory of God's firstborn (2 Pet 5:10b). Similarly, the Son "sharing" his own glory with the Father, does not mean he (Jesus) possessed the glory of the uncreated Almighty or that Jesus' glory was in equality to God's.

Hebrews doesn’t say he is a representative but an exact representation, an engraving, a mould, a copy of sorts. But how we interpret that doesn’t really help us with John’s intent. Jesus says he brought the Father glory by finishing his work, but then talks about a different glory, the one they both had together before the world began. If this glory is something non-divine about Jesus’ then why would God be sharing in it? No, it makes much more sense that Jesus is sharing in the Father’s glory.

In 2 Thess 2:14, the glory talked about relates to his disciples being sanctified and does require equality in that sense. The glory in John 17:5 also requires equality of some sort.

Final thought on #1: John 17:1-5 shows that Jesus is not equal to God because he ASKS God to give him glory. He is subordinate to his Father and relies on Him for everything.

Glory that they shared before creation; that’s equality. Then, through the incarnation, Jesus does subordinate his human nature to the Father because that is what a perfect human does, but only God can do something perfectly.

Jesus did things perfectly because he saw what the Father did and did likewise and, too, said what the Father told him to say. He was the "image" of the Father. (John 5:19; John 12:49,50; Colossians 1:15)

I believe Jesus was with the same honor/glory with the Father in John 17:5.
Let me quote Barne's Notes;

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
[With thine own self] In heaven, granting me a participation of the same honor which the Father has. He had just said that he had glorified God on the earth, he now prays that God would glorify him in heaven.
[With the glory] With the honor. This word also includes the notion of happiness, or everything which could render the condition blessed.
[Before the world was] There could not be a more distinct and clear declaration of the pre-existence of Christ than this. It means before the creation of the world; before there was any world. Of course, the speaker here must have existed then, and this is equivalent to saying that he existed from eternity. See John 1:1-2; 6:62; 3:13; 16:28. The glory which he had then was that which was proper to the Son of God, represented by the expression "being in the bosom of the Father" (John 1:18), denoting intimacy, friendship, united felicity. The Son of God, by becoming incarnate, is represented as "humbling himself" (Greek: he "emptied himself"), Phil 2:8. He laid aside for a time the external aspect of honor, and consented to become despised, and to assume the form of a servant. He now prays that God would raise him up to the dignity and honor which he had before his incarnation. This is the state to which he is now exalted, with the additional honor of having made atonement for sin, and having opened the way to save a race of rebels from eternal death. The lowest condition on earth is frequently connected with the highest honors of heaven. Man looks on the outward appearance. God looks to him that is humble and of a contrite spirit.
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

[The Tanager]

Yes, God's glory shines in Jesus. It's Gods glory (as in the original source) not Jesus' glory that shines in him

My point is that in the Hebrew scriptures, God and the glory that led the exodus are One; God’s presence is the radiant glory. Moses is said to reflect the glory (as in it is sourced by another). The writer in Hebrews compares Jesus to God’s presence, the radiant glory, not to someone reflecting a glory sourced in another.

Where in the bible does it say Jesus has to say "God is pouring out the Spirit" ? Jesus already said he has been given all authority, (Is there a part of "all authority" that is not covered by the word "all"? ) so obviously that would include the authority to direct God's spirit as he sees fit.

My point is that Joel says God will pour it out, not that God will give the authority to pour it out to someone else. And then when we expect God to pour it out on Jesus’ disciples, Jesus pours it out.

Because Jesus died for the world and God gave him a higher position than any other individual.

If the disciples don’t own it as their own because they are lower in position than the one who gave it to them, then Jesus should also not own it as his own because (according to your view) he is lower in position than God.

Agreed. However your original challenge was that the disciples had no concept of greater and lesser gods. Read what you said …

The disciples didn’t make distinctions between Almighty God and lesser Gods…

Using the term ‘gods’ to refer to humans is different from making a distinction between Almighty God and lesser Gods. My original challenge was about believing in different levels of actual Gods. Jesus’s early Jewish disciples did not hold such a belief.

So you believe that at the moment he was dying, Jesus was not at the time calling to his God but simply remembering that someone else did?

I think he was encouraging the disciples and family that were watching him die and wondering why God was doing this.

Sure, and "first and last" is not one of them

What evidence do you have of that? It can’t be the verses under question because that would just be begging the question.

Irrelevant, they are different titles.

It’s not irrelevant. Revelation is drawing on and fulfilling Daniel’s prophetic vision and John describes Jesus in the way Daniel describes God. That means the writer of Revelation is viewing Jesus as God, whatever titles are used. The writer of Revelation knows His scripture. He knows what he is doing by doing this.

It says: “Then I heard every creature–in heaven, on earth, under the earth, in the sea, and all that is in them–singing: To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb be praise, honor, glory, and ruling power forever and ever!” How is that not saying who they worshiped?

BY not saying "and they worshipped the lamb"

It doesn’t directly state “and they worshiped the One seated on the throne” either, but it is clearly worship. “Be praise, honor, glory, and ruling power forever and ever” is clearly worship. And who does the text say this is worship to? “To the one seated on the throne AND to the Lamb.”

Jesus defense was perfect, he identified himself and his role in unity with God, without claiming equality. He evidently saw no need to say more. There is no reason to build a "theology of gaps" ( focusing on what Jesus did say not) what he did say was clear. The Pharisees were wrong.

The text doesn’t directly say the Pharisees were wrong, either, so that would be just as much a “theology of the gaps”, although I don’t think either of our interpretations are doing that, we are simply doing hermeneutics.