Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[POI]

Mae He says to love others as much as you love yourselves

POI This criterion is still not possible by any human. Hence, does Jesus grant A) (un)conditional grace, or, E) No one is worthy; thus, no one goes?

[POI]

Mae You want God to be unjust.

POI The Bible demonstrates this on its own. Skeptics are merely here to point it out.

[1213]

Again with the nuh-uh defense. I have repeatedly demonstrated why these two terms are synonymous. Here it is, yet again:

22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

If righteousness is given through faith, how can faith mean righteousness?

Jesus is 'righteous'. If you have faith in the 'righteous', which is Jesus, then you are saved. The answer is then B). You stated the answer is F), which is false here for you. According to Romans 3, the only truly 'righteous' one is Jesus. You become 'righteous' through your faith in him.

The scripture says people who have faith in Jesus are justified. That means, the faith shows the person has wisdom of the just and therefore can be counted righteous. Faith is like a fruit of a tree that tells is the tree good or bad. faith is only an outcome, or result of a mind, not the reason why person did something. The reason why person did the right thing is crucial. And if person has righteous mind, he produces righteous fruit, which faith in Jesus is also.

I think everyone makes the choice what they believe.

Then I guess this means you can choose to believe in the Easter bunny? Please choose to believe in the Easter bunny for 24 hours. I implore you to try. If it's a choice, you can do so... But I bet you that you cannot...

I can choose, but I don't want to do so, because I have no good reason to do so.

It's about having faith in Jesus. If an infant dies, they do not yet know of Jesus....

Yes, but if the infant is righteous, he would be faithful to Jesus, when he would know about Jesus. If person has the right understanding, he would do the best thing, when he gets all the necessary information.

[1213]

As I proposed before: Simply choose to believe that Santa is your Lord and Savior for the next 7 days. Believe it and have no doubts. If you are honest, you know you can't do that. QED.

I can, but I don't want, because no good reason to do so. Also, isn't belief itself a doubtful position? Without a doubt, I would say "I know surely", not "I believe".

I didn't choose to believe in the effects of gravity. I didn't 'feed myself' what supported my preferred position. In fact, I would prefer that gravity wasn't a thing so we would avoid falling down. What do you propose I read such that I can change my beliefs about falling down?

Maybe the effects that are claimed to be because of gravity, could have some other explanation. I don't see any good reason to change your beliefs about it, sorry.

[Mae von H]

Mae He says to love others as much as you love yourselves

POI This criterion is still not possible by any human. Hence, does Jesus grant A) (un)conditional grace, or, E) No one is worthy; thus, no one goes?

Actually it is. No greater has any than he lay down his life for his friend or the beloved. It is certainly possible for a man to love another as much as he loves himself. It has been done.

Since you decide what answer God or man are allowed to give you, it’s impossible for there to be understanding. You are in charge of what God or man are allowed to say. Unless you free others to say what they think, not restricting acceptable answers AND admitting when you’re in error (like thinking UTIs only happen to sexually active women), which is the step of humility God requires, He will not be able to reach you. You must humble yourself and admitting you were mistaken is one fairly easy way.

[Mae von H]

As I proposed before: Simply choose to believe that Santa is your Lord and Savior for the next 7 days. Believe it and have no doubts. If you are honest, you know you can't do that. QED.

I can, but I don't want, because no good reason to do so. Also, isn't belief itself a doubtful position? Without a doubt, I would say "I know surely", not "I believe".

I didn't choose to believe in the effects of gravity. I didn't 'feed myself' what supported my preferred position. In fact, I would prefer that gravity wasn't a thing so we would avoid falling down. What do you propose I read such that I can change my beliefs about falling down?

Maybe the effects that are claimed to be because of gravity, could have some other explanation. I don't see any good reason to change your beliefs about it, sorry.

Greetings 1213,
Don’t fall for his much loved trap of insisting one believe for x hours something we KNOW is a lie. This is essentially what he is saying but using “lie” gives it away.So when an atheist asks you to try to believe a lie, he/she is tempting you to stop loving truth but force your mind to love a lie….”just for a short time.” If you take the bait, for a short time, you just joined the side that embraces untruth….not good. If you succeed you convinced yourself of a lie, which is an ability you don’t want at all. The perception of truth and seeing a lie when it’s spoken becomes thereby dull.

As a believer, we are encouraged to receive a love of the truth. Don’t throw away what the other dude is offering instead. I know he tells himself he’s making a point that relieves his conscience of the weight of choosing what to believe, but it’s not true. The answer to this challenge is essentially, “I don’t tell myself something that, after careful study and search and observation, I know to be untrue.”

[benchwarmer]

As I proposed before: Simply choose to believe that Santa is your Lord and Savior for the next 7 days. Believe it and have no doubts. If you are honest, you know you can't do that. QED.

I can, but I don't want, because no good reason to do so.

Uh huh. You realize that readers can simply try to choose a belief and realize you are wrong?

The good reason to try it is to see if you actually can do that. It's called testing someone's claim and seeing if it's true.

Also, isn't belief itself a doubtful position? Without a doubt, I would say "I know surely", not "I believe".

I will certainly concede this point. How about we rephase it to "Believe it and remain convinced", since my thesis is that we come to believe things we are convinced by.

I didn't choose to believe in the effects of gravity. I didn't 'feed myself' what supported my preferred position. In fact, I would prefer that gravity wasn't a thing so we would avoid falling down. What do you propose I read such that I can change my beliefs about falling down?

Maybe the effects that are claimed to be because of gravity, could have some other explanation. I don't see any good reason to change your beliefs about it, sorry.

There is a reason I said 'effects'. It could be invisible fairies that run around pulling objects toward each other in a way that mimics our understanding of gravity. We simply call it 'gravity', but could be these fairies. This is not the point.

My point is that I cannot simply choose to change my belief about what happens here on Earth due to the observed effects of what we call gravity. I believe that if I drop this hammer from 3 feet above my toes I will have very sore toes.

Apparently, according to you and some others, I can just choose to change my belief.

Let's get real here, the only reason some people are using this "you choose what to believe" argument is to imply that people who don't agree with you are simply choosing to ignore what you think are facts and choose "a lie on purpose". Our other interlocuter here trying to back you up has essentially used this poor line of reasoning.

I'm confident that most readers of this debate who may be on the fence will not be convinced by baseless claims and can try my experiment to prove it to themselves.

What we see are constant excuses as to why you won't try the experiment, but other than that there is nothing for me to refute.

[Mae von H]

As I proposed before: Simply choose to believe that Santa is your Lord and Savior for the next 7 days. Believe it and have no doubts. If you are honest, you know you can't do that. QED.

I can, but I don't want, because no good reason to do so.

Uh huh. You realize that readers can simply try to choose a belief and realize you are wrong?

The good reason to try it is to see if you actually can do that. It's called testing someone's claim and seeing if it's true.

Also, isn't belief itself a doubtful position? Without a doubt, I would say "I know surely", not "I believe".

I will certainly concede this point. How about we rephase it to "Believe it and remain convinced", since my thesis is that we come to believe things we are convinced by.

I didn't choose to believe in the effects of gravity. I didn't 'feed myself' what supported my preferred position. In fact, I would prefer that gravity wasn't a thing so we would avoid falling down. What do you propose I read such that I can change my beliefs about falling down?

Maybe the effects that are claimed to be because of gravity, could have some other explanation. I don't see any good reason to change your beliefs about it, sorry.

There is a reason I said 'effects'. It could be invisible fairies that run around pulling objects toward each other in a way that mimics our understanding of gravity. We simply call it 'gravity', but could be these fairies. This is not the point.

My point is that I cannot simply choose to change my belief about what happens here on Earth due to the observed effects of what we call gravity. I believe that if I drop this hammer from 3 feet above my toes I will have very sore toes.

Apparently, according to you and some others, I can just choose to change my belief.

Let's get real here, the only reason some people are using this "you choose what to believe" argument is to imply that people who don't agree with you are simply choosing to ignore what you think are facts and choose "a lie on purpose". Our other interlocuter here trying to back you up has essentially used this poor line of reasoning.

I'm confident that most readers of this debate who may be on the fence will not be convinced by baseless claims and can try my experiment to prove it to themselves.

What we see are constant excuses as to why you won't try the experiment, but other than that there is nothing for me to refute.

This whole idea of “choosing a belief” instead “exploring what is true” betrays a lack of understanding of what believing is. I’ll repeat.

We believe the government and allow ourselves be injected with something. We believe the used car salesman and buy the car. Why do you think these things are trying to convince yourself something known to be a lie is true as though no one thinks.

Now some don’t think, it’s true, but your whole point just shows that you don’t understand how people come to believe anything that requires faith. The wise man searches things out and the fool decides to believes what makes him feel good.

[benchwarmer]

We believe the government and allow ourselves be injected with something.

Maybe you did. I believe all the scientific research that shows vaccines can be effective. I chose to get vaccinated not simply because the government said something. In fact, they are usually the last people I will believe.

However, back to the actual debate here, I didn't simply choose to believe in the science. I was convinced by all the evidence and my belief came from that.

1213 said we can choose our beliefs. We cannot. End of story.

We believe the used car salesman and buy the car.

If I trust that particular used car salesman, sure. If I'm not convinced he is telling the truth I can't simply shut my brain off and choose to believe him anyways. That is entirely the point of this current difference in opinion.

1213 would have us believe we can choose to believe one way or the other. We can't. We either believe the salesman is telling the truth or we don't. We can't sit there and change our belief based solely on our personal choosing. We can have our beliefs changed if we learn something more.

1. I go to buy a car from Frank who sold me a great car 3 years ago.
2. I trust Frank based on our last experience. I believe he will not try to sell me a dud.
3. Frank shows me a nice looking car and says it's in great condition.
4. Frank walks away and starts talking to another customer. While he's doing that I notice a puddle of something under the car I was eyeing. I look closer and see the oil pan has a crack in it and oil is seeping out. My trust in Frank has just taken a hit and now I no longer believe him as I once did.
5. Frank comes back and I ask him about the oil leak. He says there isn't one. I don't believe him. I've seen convincing to me evidence he is wrong.
6. At this point, I cannot simply choose to believe Frank again. 1213 thinks I could. This is clearly wrong. The end.

Pretending that some people purposely choose to believe something is a non starter. We all know it doesn't work that way despite desperate hand waving.

[POI]

No greater has any than he lay down his life for his friend or the beloved.

I already covered this exact scenario. I asked if it is possible to love all this much, aside from your family or close friends. Hence, let's explore your plausible answers of A) or E). Which one of the two are you think'n?