Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

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Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #1

Post by POI »

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #691

Post by TRANSPONDER »

1213 wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2024 4:04 am
POI wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:16 pm ...All earnest believers, you included, cannot even agree on the simple question regarding what option achieves your salvation? ...
If people don't agree, it does not mean that the message is not clear. I think Bible is very clear. The problem is that some people just don't want to accept what it says.
But that's the problem. Those others who disagree with you (including the mainstream church, it seems) also think the Bible is very clear and it is only people like you who won't acept what it says. No doubt they can pick random Bible passages to support their view, and you have a history of twisting and disregarding anything in the bible hat doesn't suit you.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #692

Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2024 4:04 am
POI wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:16 pm ...All earnest believers, you included, cannot even agree on the simple question regarding what option achieves your salvation? ...
If people don't agree, it does not mean that the message is not clear. I think Bible is very clear. The problem is that some people just don't want to accept what it says.
You are skipping an essential part of my position. All you fine Christian folks are EARNEST in both your convictions, as well as your studies on the topic, and yet you guys still do not agree. None of you fine folks are dumb either. I'll give you a simple scenario. Example:

1213 -> "Hey POI, how does one achieve entrance into that play?"

POI -> "Wait in line and buy a ticket before they sell out."

1213 -> "How many tickets are available? "

POI -> "500"

1213 -> "Okay, thanks. Hopefully, some tickets are still available when I reach the front of the line to buy one."

POI -> "Me too, maybe we can sit together."

****************************************************

Now just replace the words in red with Heaven.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #693

Post by POI »

Mae Untrue. We are saved through the blood of Jesus. This is universal.

POI Then the answer is A).

Mae But why do you think that because people disagree that then their source authors confusion? Show 30 doctors a case study and you will NOT get the same answer from all. Is medical school the author of confusion? It seems like you just want to accuse God of wrong again. It’s no wonder He doesn’t answer you. I don’t answer people who’ve wrongly accused me of evil either. That this is your motive is made more clear by you refusing to admit that people can be mistaken. You blame God. I guess when less than 100% of students pass an exam it’s entirely the teacher’s fault right??

POI If a student gets the answer wrong, it's because of either:

a) not actually getting the material for whatever reason, or
b) deliberately picking the wrong answer.

Your analogy then fails, because all of you fine folks CLAIM you know all the material quite well. Hence, it cannot be answer a). So, is the answer b)? My point being, you then have to place blame on the Bible writers. You then start to see the position of the skeptics, when we state the book is filled with contradiction.

Mae That theology is a lie and promotes an evil attributed to Him.

POI Great. Another huge point of disagreement, for all his claimed well-meaning and well-read followers.

Mae You certainly are. No blame is laid on people in your view. None at all

POI All I can do here, is re-post this passed statement/question:

Christians, imagine you are God for a moment. You are the creator of humans, and you really want a permanent relationship with your creation. You know most humans are either illiterate, stupid, and/or easily blinded/distracted by unwanted forces (natural and supernatural alike). You know there exists these collections of writings we later call the Bible, which apparently gives a road map on how to achieve eternal bliss - (or go to Heaven). You also know, because you are God, that most people will not achieve it. Many of which, however, try as they might. Would you, imagining yourself as God again, be satisfied with what the Bible conveys about going to Heaven? I'll answer, as a fellow imaginer... No. I would not be satisfied. If I know the majority of my creation was, (again), illiterate, dumb, and/or easily distracted, I will make sure the written word was very easy to follow and also not leave any room for interpretation. You know, like all here clearly agree that God does not like murder, theft, trespassing, etc. And YET, we have countless denominations, all earnest in their attempt to translate what the Bible says. In essence, I blame God. He could provide any tool for the task and chose this one? All we have is the Bible. And as we have discovered, none of you fine folks agree. If you were God, I bet you would have devised a better plan of attack. What'za think?

Mae There is a moral law inside each man. All will be judged by how they lived up to the moral law within. What could be more fair?

POI So, belief in a risen Jesus is not required after all?

Mae but you insist on your division.

POI No I do not. You guys create your own division. I'm asking why you guys are so divided. Heck, I can drive down a street and see a Baptist church directly next door to a Unitarian church. Please tell me there exists no division in these two sects alone?

Mae If I may be so bold, it’s now no wonder to me that you never hear from God on the questions you have.

POI With statements like this, you are further proving yourself to be quite petty, as well as the character of the God you believe in. Which in reality, are likely really one in-the-same in reality. :)

Mae You deliberately avoiding my point.

POI You stated it is required to love all as much, or more, than yourself. You then admit no one on earth can achieve this goal. If it is a requirement, then no one goes. The answer is then E). Do you now instead wish to change your answer?
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #694

Post by Mae von H »

POI wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2024 12:54 pm Mae Untrue. We are saved through the blood of Jesus. This is universal.

POI Then the answer is A).

Mae But why do you think that because people disagree that then their source authors confusion? Show 30 doctors a case study and you will NOT get the same answer from all. Is medical school the author of confusion? It seems like you just want to accuse God of wrong again. It’s no wonder He doesn’t answer you. I don’t answer people who’ve wrongly accused me of evil either. That this is your motive is made more clear by you refusing to admit that people can be mistaken. You blame God. I guess when less than 100% of students pass an exam it’s entirely the teacher’s fault right??

POI If a student gets the answer wrong, it's because of either:

a) not actually getting the material for whatever reason, or
b) deliberately picking the wrong answer.
Really? Those are the only options? Seriously? You never heard of forgetting or never really learning the material?
Your analogy then fails, because all of you fine folks CLAIM you know all the material quite well.
Incorrect. We do not.
Hence, it cannot be answer a). So, is the answer b)? My point being, you then have to place blame on the Bible writers. You then start to see the position of the skeptics, when we state the book is filled with contradiction.
I guess the idea that people cannot simply be mistaken does not occur to you. Wow....you are, i am afraid, gravely mistaken, a possibility you do not admit can be an option.
Mae That theology is a lie and promotes an evil attributed to Him.

POI Great. Another huge point of disagreement, for all his claimed well-meaning and well-read followers.
You are again mistaken. Have you read the history of what the intentor of this theology did? "Well-meaning" is not a word that can be applied.
Mae You certainly are. No blame is laid on people in your view. None at all

POI All I can do here, is re-post this passed statement/question:

Christians, imagine you are God for a moment. You are the creator of humans, and you really want a permanent relationship with your creation. You know most humans are either illiterate, stupid, and/or easily blinded/distracted by unwanted forces (natural and supernatural alike).
Here you are mistaken. That is not the man He created nor does He think this. Man, your view is really dark, I must say. I will skip to the bottom because your assumption at the get go is so far off, the rest can have no semblence to truth.
You know there exists these collections of writings we later call the Bible, which apparently gives a road map on how to achieve eternal bliss - (or go to Heaven). You also know, because you are God, that most people will not achieve it. Many of which, however, try as they might. Would you, imagining yourself as God again, be satisfied with what the Bible conveys about going to Heaven? I'll answer, as a fellow imaginer... No. I would not be satisfied. If I know the majority of my creation was, (again), illiterate, dumb, and/or easily distracted, I will make sure the written word was very easy to follow and also not leave any room for interpretation. You know, like all here clearly agree that God does not like murder, theft, trespassing, etc. And YET, we have countless denominations, all earnest in their attempt to translate what the Bible says. In essence, I blame God. He could provide any tool for the task and chose this one? All we have is the Bible. And as we have discovered, none of you fine folks agree. If you were God, I bet you would have devised a better plan of attack. What'za think?

Mae There is a moral law inside each man. All will be judged by how they lived up to the moral law within. What could be more fair?

POI So, belief in a risen Jesus is not required after all?
Do you live up to all that you require morally and ethically of others? That is every day of your life? Can this be said of you?
Mae but you insist on your division.

POI No I do not. You guys create your own division. I'm asking why you guys are so divided. Heck, I can drive down a street and see a Baptist church directly next door to a Unitarian church. Please tell me there exists no division in these two sects alone?

Mae If I may be so bold, it’s now no wonder to me that you never hear from God on the questions you have.

POI With statements like this, you are further proving yourself to be quite petty, as well as the character of the God you believe in. Which in reality, are likely really one in-the-same in reality. :)

Mae You deliberately avoiding my point.

POI You stated it is required to love all as much, or more, than yourself. You then admit no one on earth can achieve this goal. If it is a requirement, then no one goes. The answer is then E). Do you now instead wish to change your answer?
You do not understand. When a man has decided to accuse God unjustly of evil, he has blinded himself to the truth. God might speak but that man will just hear thunder. The free will choice to think and accuse God of evil stands. God will not override that choice. It is not petty but giving that man great honor. His free will can thwart the will of God.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #695

Post by POI »

I again ask, unanswered. You stated, in post 686 "You want the criteria for Gods family? Love others as much and no less than you love yourself". If this is the criteria, then I guess the answer is E)?

Mae You never heard of forgetting or never really learning the material?

POI Option a) states "for whatever reasons". Hence, those factors you mentioned are also already included in option a), so yes.

Mae Incorrect. We do not.

POI So, you admit I might actually be right, and you might actually be wrong?

Mae I guess the idea that people cannot simply be mistaken does not occur to you. Wow....you are, i am afraid, gravely mistaken, a possibility you do not admit can be an option.

POI If you are mistaken, you do not get the answer right. My question is, how does one get to Heaven? So far, your answers are all over the place, and in conflict with one another.

Mae You are again mistaken. Have you read the history of what the intentor of this theology did? "Well-meaning" is not a word that can be applied.

POI

1) There is not a large divide in believers, who believe in a literal hell, verses not?
2) All the ones who believe in a literal hell are 'bad'?

Mae Here you are mistaken. That is not the man He created nor does He think this. Man, your view is really dark, I must say. I will skip to the bottom because your assumption at the get go is so far off, the rest can have no semblence to truth.

POI Was the Bible written before or after "the fall"? If it was after, which it was, then my point stands.

Mae There is a moral law inside each man. All will be judged by how they lived up to the moral law within. What could be more fair? Do you live up to all that you require morally and ethically of others? That is every day of your life? Can this be said of you?

POI You did not answer my question. Is it, or is it not, a requirement to believe in a risen Jesus? Is B) a requirement, or not?

Mae You do not understand. When a man has decided to accuse God unjustly of evil, he has blinded himself to the truth. God might speak but that man will just hear thunder. The free will choice to think and accuse God of evil stands. God will not override that choice. It is not petty but giving that man great honor. His free will can thwart the will of God.

POI You again did not address my observations, but instead choose to preach. Should I expect this tactic as the norm from you? This is a debate arena, not a church.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #696

Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2024 12:27 pm ...
1213 -> "Hey POI, how does one achieve entrance into that play?"

POI -> "Wait in line and buy a ticket before they sell out."

1213 -> "How many tickets are available? "

POI -> "500"

1213 -> "Okay, thanks. Hopefully, some tickets are still available when I reach the front of the line to buy one."

POI -> "Me too, maybe we can sit together."

****************************************************

Now just replace the words in red with Heaven.
By what is said in the Bible, it goes like this:

POI -> "Hey POI, how does one achieve entrance into heaven?"

1213 -> "All God's children are invited."

POI -> "How many tickets are available? "

1213 -> "As many as there are God's children."

POI -> "Okay, thanks. "

Do you think these Scriptures are not valid, why?

and said, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless you turn, and become as little children, you will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Matt. 18:3
Jesus answered him, "Most assuredly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, [The word translated "anew" here and in John 3:7 (anothen) also means "again" and "from above".] he can't see the Kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7
But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #697

Post by 1213 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2024 8:16 am ...it is only people like you who won't accept what it says...
I would like to know what I don't accept from the Bible.
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #698

Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 1:03 pm
POI wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2024 12:27 pm ...
1213 -> "Hey POI, how does one achieve entrance into that play?"

POI -> "Wait in line and buy a ticket before they sell out."

1213 -> "How many tickets are available? "

POI -> "500"

1213 -> "Okay, thanks. Hopefully, some tickets are still available when I reach the front of the line to buy one."

POI -> "Me too, maybe we can sit together."

****************************************************

Now just replace the words in red with Heaven.
By what is said in the Bible, it goes like this:

POI -> "Hey POI, how does one achieve entrance into heaven?"

1213 -> "All God's children are invited."

POI -> "How many tickets are available? "

1213 -> "As many as there are God's children."

POI -> "Okay, thanks. "

Do you think these Scriptures are not valid, why?

and said, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless you turn, and become as little children, you will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Matt. 18:3
Jesus answered him, "Most assuredly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, [The word translated "anew" here and in John 3:7 (anothen) also means "again" and "from above".] he can't see the Kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7
But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13
Hmm, looks like you have now abandoned your prior response(s) about being 'righteous'? Curious...

I'm also not saying all the ones provided are or are not "valid". I'm asking Christians what IS the criteria. And virtually every Christian I ask, who also claims to know, gives me a differing answer. I then blame the Bible writers, not you.

Further, if you MUST be born 'anew', then infants, toddlers, little children, and the ones who will never hear of him, who then die in that state, stand no chance.
Last edited by POI on Mon Apr 01, 2024 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #699

Post by TRANSPONDER »

1213 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 1:08 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2024 8:16 am ...it is only people like you who won't accept what it says...
I would like to know what I don't accept from the Bible.
Haven't we done this many times? You reject anything that doesn't suit you. Didn't we already do Paul' indication that it was Jesus' blood - sacrifice that saved, not doing this or that good works. Do you deny everything that had been shown and insist on it being done again.

Don't you know how it makes you look when you deny stuff that has been done and everyone here knows it has been done, and still you deny it and demand to be shown all over again.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #700

Post by Mae von H »

POI wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2024 3:31 pm I again ask, unanswered. You stated, in post 686 "You want the criteria for Gods family? Love others as much and no less than you love yourself". If this is the criteria, then I guess the answer is E)?

Mae You never heard of forgetting or never really learning the material?

POI Option a) states "for whatever reasons". Hence, those factors you mentioned are also already included in option a), so yes.
Your answers as to why students might not pass did not include simply forgetting material. Singular and no, that possibly was not included in your presented options.The obvious you left out. You like to control the options for others, don’t you?

Mae Incorrect. We do not.

POI So, you admit I might actually be right, and you might actually be wrong?
No, that was not an option,
Mae I guess the idea that people cannot simply be mistaken does not occur to you. Wow....you are, i am afraid, gravely mistaken, a possibility you do not admit can be an option.

POI If you are mistaken, you do not get the answer right. My question is, how does one get to Heaven? So far, your answers are all over the place, and in conflict with one another.
Chaff! You divert the discussion here when it’s clear you are mistaken. And I told you an answer. Keep the moral law every day, which I can tell you, you don’t.
Mae You are again mistaken. Have you read the history of what the intentor of this theology did? "Well-meaning" is not a word that can be applied.

POI

1) There is not a large divide in believers, who believe in a literal hell, verses not?
2) All the ones who believe in a literal hell are 'bad'?
We never discussed hell. Don’t change my words please.
Mae Here you are mistaken. That is not the man He created nor does He think this. Man, your view is really dark, I must say. I will skip to the bottom because your assumption at the get go is so far off, the rest can have no semblence to truth.

POI Was the Bible written before or after "the fall"? If it was after, which it was, then my point stands.

Mae There is a moral law inside each man. All will be judged by how they lived up to the moral law within. What could be more fair? Do you live up to all that you require morally and ethically of others? That is every day of your life? Can this be said of you?

POI You did not answer my question. Is it, or is it not, a requirement to believe in a risen Jesus? Is B) a requirement, or not?
If you can keep the moral law of God perfectly, then no. But anyone who can do this would deeply love Christ.
Mae You do not understand. When a man has decided to accuse God unjustly of evil, he has blinded himself to the truth. God might speak but that man will just hear thunder. The free will choice to think and accuse God of evil stands. God will not override that choice. It is not petty but giving that man great honor. His free will can thwart the will of God.

POI You again did not address my observations, but instead choose to preach. Should I expect this tactic as the norm from you? This is a debate arena, not a church.
You do like to control what others say to you, don’t you? You want answers but only your a) b) c) or d) are allowed. That you might not understand a matter doesn’t occur to you. That someone else’s thought don’t fit into the box you insist they use doesn’t occur to you.

You don’t want explanations so you call it “preaching” so as to prevent you from learning.

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