Comments on the Zzyzx / Easyrider debate

[Zzyzx]

I open this thread to encourage people to express their ideas on the topics being discussed in the ZZ vs. ER debate thread.

Of course anyone can post in the original thread because one of us declined opening it in Head to Head (that would have been a controlled one-on-one debate. However, it might be more appropriate to post comments in this thread.

The "questions for debate" are:

1. Does the debate make any sense or is it a waste of time and energy?

2. Would you like to see more one-on-one debates?

3. Is the idea of a “comments on the debate thread” appealing to you?

[bernee51]

One is the foretelling of the events hundreds of years in advance.

Can you not grasp - just for one moment - the possibility that those who wrote the Jesus story would have read the prophecies and wrote the story in the way it was written to show that the prophecies were fulfilled in order to give credence to their 'messiah'.

IOW, they made it up Biker.

But since it is so "unlikely" as you say, it should be a simple matter for you to give hard evidence to refute it.

Prove that there is not a celestial teapot orbiting the sun between earth and Mars.

I think reasonable people accept the historical facts, of the resurrection.

Believers in a myth accept that a dead man can come back to life, reasonable people are more prone to doubt it or openly admit that their beliefs are, in fact, unreasonable and based on faith not evidence.

[Biker]

One is the foretelling of the events hundreds of years in advance.

Can you not grasp - just for one moment - the possibility that those who wrote the Jesus story would have read the prophecies and wrote the story in the way it was written to show that the prophecies were fulfilled in order to give credence to their 'messiah'.

IOW, they made it up Biker.

But since it is so "unlikely" as you say, it should be a simple matter for you to give hard evidence to refute it.

Prove that there is not a celestial teapot orbiting the sun between earth and Mars.

I think reasonable people accept the historical facts, of the resurrection.

Believers in a myth accept that a dead man can come back to life, reasonable people are more prone to doubt it or openly admit that their beliefs are, in fact, unreasonable and based on faith not evidence.

WOW, what kind of tea are you drinking Bernee?
Must be those real potent herbal "celestial seasoning's" type?
Well bernee, if there were 5,700 Greek manuscripts out there from a period starting 2,000 years ago, and they were all saying the same thing from varying cultures and geography and tribes and peoples and the message had set the world on it's ear and the billions of proponents of the teapot had influenced history positively like no other group in the history of man and still are. Then I might have to take a little look at your little teapot Bernee. Wow, do you sing the I'm a little teapot song toooo?

Biker

[Biker]

One is the foretelling of the events hundreds of years in advance.

Can you not grasp - just for one moment - the possibility that those who wrote the Jesus story would have read the prophecies and wrote the story in the way it was written to show that the prophecies were fulfilled in order to give credence to their 'messiah'.

IOW, they made it up Biker.

But since it is so "unlikely" as you say, it should be a simple matter for you to give hard evidence to refute it.

Prove that there is not a celestial teapot orbiting the sun between earth and Mars.

I think reasonable people accept the historical facts, of the resurrection.

Believers in a myth accept that a dead man can come back to life, reasonable people are more prone to doubt it or openly admit that their beliefs are, in fact, unreasonable and based on faith not evidence.

IOW, they made it up Biker

BS Bernee, do you have anything other than your little teapot OP, anything?
The historical document is out there, has been for 2,000 years nobody has proven wrong! Feel lucky big boy? Give it a shot.

Biker

[Goat]

One is the foretelling of the events hundreds of years in advance.

Can you not grasp - just for one moment - the possibility that those who wrote the Jesus story would have read the prophecies and wrote the story in the way it was written to show that the prophecies were fulfilled in order to give credence to their 'messiah'.

IOW, they made it up Biker.

But since it is so "unlikely" as you say, it should be a simple matter for you to give hard evidence to refute it.

Prove that there is not a celestial teapot orbiting the sun between earth and Mars.

I think reasonable people accept the historical facts, of the resurrection.

Believers in a myth accept that a dead man can come back to life, reasonable people are more prone to doubt it or openly admit that their beliefs are, in fact, unreasonable and based on faith not evidence.

IOW, they made it up Biker

BS Bernee, do you have anything other than your little teapot OP, anything?
The historical document is out there, has been for 2,000 years nobody has proven wrong! Feel lucky big boy? Give it a shot.

Biker

Guess what, we have a historcal docuement in the illiand that for 2500 years no one has proved wrong. Feel Lucky Big boy?? Give it a shot.

[bernee51]

WOW, what kind of tea are you drinking Bernee?
Must be those real potent herbal "celestial seasoning's" type?

I prefer Darjeeling - either first or second flush - and leaves only - no teabags for me. I'm a purist.

Well bernee, if there were 5,700 Greek manuscripts out there from a period starting 2,000 years ago, and they were all saying the same thing from varying cultures and geography and tribes and peoples and the message had set the world on it's ear and the billions of proponents of the teapot had influenced history positively like no other group in the history of man and still are. Then I might have to take a little look at your little teapot Bernee.

Whats that? There are 5700 Greek manuscripts all from various cultures and tribes and peoples?

You're making it up.

Here is what Russell had to say about his teapot..."If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."

[bernee51]

The historical document is out there, has been for 2,000 years nobody has proven wrong! Feel lucky big boy? Give it a shot.

How about one that was known to have been composed more than 2700 years ago which has been written about and commented on by others since the 6th century BCE. The Mahabharata., of which the Bhagavad Gita is a part, is ostensibly an historical account of a battle betwee Arjuna and his relatives. He was having a few 'difficulties' and Krishna (funny how this ancient name for a god sounds so familiar) came to advise him. It purports to be an account of a war that happened a millennia or more before the Jesus myth was concocted.

Prove it didn't happen?

[Biker]

One is the foretelling of the events hundreds of years in advance.

Can you not grasp - just for one moment - the possibility that those who wrote the Jesus story would have read the prophecies and wrote the story in the way it was written to show that the prophecies were fulfilled in order to give credence to their 'messiah'.

IOW, they made it up Biker.

But since it is so "unlikely" as you say, it should be a simple matter for you to give hard evidence to refute it.

Prove that there is not a celestial teapot orbiting the sun between earth and Mars.

I think reasonable people accept the historical facts, of the resurrection.

Believers in a myth accept that a dead man can come back to life, reasonable people are more prone to doubt it or openly admit that their beliefs are, in fact, unreasonable and based on faith not evidence.

IOW, they made it up Biker

BS Bernee, do you have anything other than your little teapot OP, anything?
The historical document is out there, has been for 2,000 years nobody has proven wrong! Feel lucky big boy? Give it a shot.

Biker

Guess what, we have a historcal docuement in the illiand that for 2500 years no one has proved wrong. Feel Lucky Big boy?? Give it a shot.

Ho Hum,
I see again no proof, refuting the historical document, the New Testament, just speculative noise.

Guess what, we have a historical document in the illiand that for 2500 years no one has proved wrong.

I presume you mean the Iliad? Is that the writing you refer to? I am not aware of the illiand? Lets take a look at a little comparison between the New Testament and (Homers) the Iliad.
First The New Testament is considered by most to be divinely inspired writing since the inception. The Iliad we are not certian it was even written by Homer, but since it's inception it is considered to be nothing more than a poem.
So, two distinct class of document.
There is more abundant and accurate manuscript evidence for the New Testament than for any other book from the ancient world. That, bears repeating, than FOR ANY OTHER BOOK FROM THE ANCIENT WORLD. There are more manuscripts copied with greater accuracy and earlier dating than for any secular classic from antiquity. I will list a few important NT manuscripts.
The John Rylands Fragment (P52)
The Bodmer Papyri (P66, P72, P75)
Codex Vaticanus (B)
Codex Sinaiticus (Aleph)
Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (C)
Codex Alexandrinus (A)
Codex Bezae (D)
Codex Claromontanus (D2)
Codex Basiliensis (E)
Codex Laudianus (E2)
The total count of Greek manuscripts of the New Testament is now over 5,700.
No other book from antiquity possesses anything like this abundance of manuscripts.
Homer, date written 9th century B.C., earliest copy ?, number of copies 643, Accuracy of copy 95%
New Testament, date written 1st century A.D. (50-100 A.D.), earliest copy 2nd century A.D. (c. 130 A.D.f.), number of copies over 5,700, Accuracy of copy 99.5%+.
From the standpoint of a documentary historian the NT has vastly superior evidence to that of any other book from the ancient world.
Several observations about the data of NT vs Homer.
NT over 5,700 manuscripts vs homer 643 copies.
NT gap between autograph and earliest copy 80+- years vs Homer ?.
The NT, however, has a fragment within one generation from its original composition, whole books within about 100 years from the time of the autograph, most of the NT in less than 200 years, and the entire NT within 250 years from the date of its completion.
The degree of the accuracy of the copies is greater for the NT than for other books that can be compared. Most books do not survive with enough manuscripts that make comparison possible. A handful of copies that are 1,000 years after the fact do not provide enough links in the missing chain nor enough variant readings in the manuscript to enable textual scholars to reconstruct the original. Bruce Metzger does provide an interesting comparison of the NT to Homers Iliad. The NT has about 20,000 lines. Of these only 40 have any doubt (i.e., about 400 words). The Iliad possesses about 15,600 lines with 764 of them in question. This would mean that Homers text is only 95% pure or accurate compared to over 99.5% accuracy for the NT manuscript copies. From this documentary standpoint the NT writings are superior to comparable ancient writings. The records for the NT are vastly more abundant, clearly more ancient, and considerably more accurate in their text.
Another point, The NT has inspired billions in the 2,000 years since it was penned, promoting right standing with God, right conduct and thought, its adherents are literally of all peoples and geography and growing daily of which the document is in a whole other class than the secular work of Homer. Not to take anything from the Iliad for what it is, but the comparative reference to the NT is sorely lacking in grace and truth and Spirit and the breadth of its reach incalculable. Not to mention the undeniable degree of accuracy of the present text to the autograph.
What we hold in our hands is the original.

Biker

[Biker]

The historical document is out there, has been for 2,000 years nobody has proven wrong! Feel lucky big boy? Give it a shot.

How about one that was known to have been composed more than 2700 years ago which has been written about and commented on by others since the 6th century BCE. The Mahabharata., of which the Bhagavad Gita is a part, is ostensibly an historical account of a battle betwee Arjuna and his relatives. He was having a few 'difficulties' and Krishna (funny how this ancient name for a god sounds so familiar) came to advise him. It purports to be an account of a war that happened a millennia or more before the Jesus myth was concocted.

Prove it didn't happen?

Lets take a little look at the Mahabharata.
Mahabharata, Date Written ?, Earliest Copy ?, Number of Copies ?, Accuracy of Copy 90%
New Testament, Date Written 1st Century A.D. (50-100 A.D.), Earliest Copy 2nd Century A.D. (c. 130 A.D.f.), Number of Copies 5,700, Accuracy of Copy 99.5%
The national epic of India has suffered even more textual corruption than the Iliad. The Mahabharata is some eight times the size of the Iliad, of which some 26,000 lines are in doubt. This would be roughly 10% textual corruption or a 90% accuracy copy of the original.
Compared to a 99.5% accuracy for the NT.
The great story (Mahabharata), I cannot accurately comment on because it has suffered so much textual corruption that the writing cannot be trusted for its content. The extant copies are so few that an accurate copy cannot be drawn together. My understanding is it is just a story anyway.
It is not in the same class as the New Testament because Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, and the historical record is in tact, and the NT clearly lays out Gods plan of salvation and how Jesus Christ accomplished it with details on the future culmination of all things here on earth, by Jesus.
So the two cannot be compared similar to the NT and the Iliad poem.
See my earlier post on the Iliad for more details on the supernatural accuracy of the New Testament manuscript. It is uncanny to say the least.

Biker

[Biker]

WOW, what kind of tea are you drinking Bernee?
Must be those real potent herbal "celestial seasoning's" type?

I prefer Darjeeling - either first or second flush - and leaves only - no teabags for me. I'm a purist.

Well bernee, if there were 5,700 Greek manuscripts out there from a period starting 2,000 years ago, and they were all saying the same thing from varying cultures and geography and tribes and peoples and the message had set the world on it's ear and the billions of proponents of the teapot had influenced history positively like no other group in the history of man and still are. Then I might have to take a little look at your little teapot Bernee.

Whats that? There are 5700 Greek manuscripts all from various cultures and tribes and peoples?

You're making it up.

Here is what Russell had to say about his teapot..."If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."

Don't tell me you still take Russell seriously do you? Are you talking about ol Bert Russell? Sometime we must talk about his moral disproof of God, its a real hoot. He is one of the reasons: "why I am not an atheist."

Biker

[bernee51]

The historical document is out there, has been for 2,000 years nobody has proven wrong! Feel lucky big boy? Give it a shot.

How about one that was known to have been composed more than 2700 years ago which has been written about and commented on by others since the 6th century BCE. The Mahabharata., of which the Bhagavad Gita is a part, is ostensibly an historical account of a battle betwee Arjuna and his relatives. He was having a few 'difficulties' and Krishna (funny how this ancient name for a god sounds so familiar) came to advise him. It purports to be an account of a war that happened a millennia or more before the Jesus myth was concocted.

Prove it didn't happen?

Lets take a little look at the Mahabharata.
Mahabharata, Date Written ?, Earliest Copy ?, Number of Copies ?, Accuracy of Copy 90%
New Testament, Date Written 1st Century A.D. (50-100 A.D.), Earliest Copy 2nd Century A.D. (c. 130 A.D.f.), Number of Copies 5,700, Accuracy of Copy 99.5%
The national epic of India has suffered even more textual corruption than the Iliad. The Mahabharata is some eight times the size of the Iliad, of which some 26,000 lines are in doubt. This would be roughly 10% textual corruption or a 90% accuracy copy of the original.
Compared to a 99.5% accuracy for the NT.
The great story (Mahabharata), I cannot accurately comment on because it has suffered so much textual corruption that the writing cannot be trusted for its content. The extant copies are so few that an accurate copy cannot be drawn together. My understanding is it is just a story anyway.
It is not in the same class as the New Testament because Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, and the historical record is in tact, and the NT clearly lays out Gods plan of salvation and how Jesus Christ accomplished it with details on the future culmination of all things here on earth, by Jesus.
So the two cannot be compared similar to the NT and the Iliad poem.
See my earlier post on the Iliad for more details on the supernatural accuracy of the New Testament manuscript. It is uncanny to say the least.

Biker

I'm not looking for a literary analysis.

Prove to me that the stories in the Mahbharata did not happen.

What's that? You can't'? Well blow me down.