How do you know you have Sensus divinitatis?

[boatsnguitars]

Calvin proposed the idea: that like sight, he had a sense that was used to feel God.

Of course, there is no God, so it can better be explained that Calvin had a feeling of something, thought he was super special, and he wanted to murder people so he pretended there was a God and used his religion to murder Servitus.

The issue for debate: why do people think that if they feel like Dracula is in the room with them, Then it's true that Dracula is in the room, and if you don't believe it, Dracula fans will kill you?

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER.
You say - "Bottom line, these modern -day geniuses do the work and thought so we don't have to."

---- That is the path to Looserville. It is funny to see a self-declared atheist in full sail. You know more about theism, than most theists do. You are becoming pentacostally passionate. You have your hands on your ears in case you are cross-contaminated by ideas. You have inherited the lone voice of supposed atheism,crying in the wilderness, that was previously a JoeyKnothead.

No evidence! No evidence! No evidence!

You have had your shots so what harm can a little Eden, deep-dive do, or are you seriously saying that you are finished thinking because you know.

Genesis 1: 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day

Is this a cosmic consciousness making things happen from nothing?

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER.
You say - "Bottom line, these modern -day geniuses do the work and thought so we don't have to."

---- That is the path to Looserville. It is funny to see a self-declared atheist in full sail. You know more about theism, than most theists do. You are becoming pentacostally passionate. You have your hands on your ears in case you are cross-contaminated by ideas. You have inherited the lone voice of supposed atheism,crying in the wilderness, that was previously a JoeyKnothead.

No evidence! No evidence! No evidence!

You have had your shots so what harm can a little Eden, deep-dive do, or are you seriously saying that you are finished thinking because you know.

Genesis 1: 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day

Is this a cosmic consciousness making things happen from nothing?

Of course, I don't care what you think of me.I only care about the case that is made.

You said "No Evidence!" No. Nothing that actually makes the case. I am well open to any you want to present I'm afraid that 'science in the Bible' like vaguely trying to fit the physics of Cosmic origins to the scientifically inaccurate Genesis is not a case. At the least, why that creation -myth rather than any other?

[boatsnguitars]

Re: "Something from Nothing"

I'm not sure how Theists misunderstand Krauss (or, maybe Krauss isn't right) about "Nothing."

Krauss is basically saying that "Nothing" is the lowest-energy state of a system. In Science we call it the Ground state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_state

That is, "Nothing" - as in absolutely nothing - never existed. Call it God, or call it the Quantum ground state, something existed.

The problem I have with Theism is that it doens't explain how God (non-matter) can make matter. Whereas, we know matter is made of quantum particles. We don't need to appeal to anything else. There was always "Something" and it's the same stuff we have now.

Theists want to claim there was always "Something" (they call it God) and that he made matter from non-matter.

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You ask - "At the least, why that creation -myth rather than any other?"

This is the one we are all talking about. This is the one that is used, most often. This is a narrative that we can approach from our different perspectives. If you went to a film you would use it's narrative. Can we do all creation myths? I have my favourites.

This is a very evolved and sophisticated creation myth. You will find the elements of previous cultures within it. It has over a thousand years of oral tradition embedded in it's concise account. It dates to a fascinating time and place in history. It is a reason to think.It is there in front of you.....how many more reasons do you want?

Do you think that the world you are in is a simulation, T?
Do you think the world was made.?
Do you think that the world formed itself?
Do you not care?
Did you find an answer in quantum physics, T.

Why would God stick a forbidden tree of good and evil in the middle of everything?.
Why was Eggman sent to a planet of mushrooms?

[Masterblaster]

Hello boatsnguitars

You say - :"The problem I have with Theism is that it doesn't t explain how God (non-matter) can make matter"
-----

Do you want a Theism that tells you what it knows or one that tells you everything. In the OT, it takes two pages to get the world done from start to finish.
That's ' a stab at things'. Genesis does not question God's methods, God's intentions, or God's logic. The end result is all around you to examine and explore. Genesis moves quickly to the bit that we are in, cue,action, man. You were never going to get a driver's manual, Figure it out, I think.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #114

as Krauss pointed out, the virtual particles experiment show that matter/energy can come from a nothing that doesn't need creation.

He keeps saying that it happens. He says nothing about how it happens.

The universe is (or was) nothing and produced particles because it mathematically had to.

That sounds like the "Universe from Math" argument, which also suggests a mind since mathematical equations are purely mental constructs and would have no creative power of their own in Nothing.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #114

as Krauss pointed out, the virtual particles experiment show that matter/energy can come from a nothing that doesn't need creation.

He keeps saying that it happens. He says nothing about how it happens.

Exactly the same how christian apologetes do with The Resurrection

The universe is (or was) nothing and produced particles because it mathematically had to.

That sounds like the "Universe from Math" argument, which also suggests a mind since mathematical equations are purely mental constructs and would have no creative power of their own in Nothing.

I think this is meant somehow like:
2 + 2 mathematically have to make 4

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #127

He keeps saying that it happens. He says nothing about how it happens.

Exactly the same how christian apologetes do with The Resurrection

Irrelevant, since I'm not trying to make a case for a resurrection.

I think this is meant somehow like:
2 + 2 mathematically have to make 4

0 + 0 mathematically doesn't make 4.

[alexxcJRO]

Re: "Something from Nothing"

I'm not sure how Theists misunderstand Krauss (or, maybe Krauss isn't right) about "Nothing."

Krauss is basically saying that "Nothing" is the lowest-energy state of a system. In Science we call it the Ground state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_state

That is, "Nothing" - as in absolutely nothing - never existed. Call it God, or call it the Quantum ground state, something existed.

The problem I have with Theism is that it doens't explain how God (non-matter) can make matter. Whereas, we know matter is made of quantum particles. We don't need to appeal to anything else. There was always "Something" and it's the same stuff we have now.

Theists want to claim there was always "Something" (they call it God) and that he made matter from non-matter.

There is an equivocation going on here.
Krauss talks of Nothing as no particles(=a higher energy state then Ground state). Theists when they mean Nothing they mean philosophical nothingness.

Theists say is logically impossible that from Nothing(philosophical nothingness) something arise.
Krauss basically says Nothing is not Nothing(philosophical nothingness) but still something.

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You ask - "At the least, why that creation -myth rather than any other?"

This is the one we are all talking about. This is the one that is used, most often. This is a narrative that we can approach from our different perspectives. If you went to a film you would use it's narrative. Can we do all creation myths? I have my favourites.

This is a very evolved and sophisticated creation myth. You will find the elements of previous cultures within it. It has over a thousand years of oral tradition embedded in it's concise account. It dates to a fascinating time and place in history. It is a reason to think.It is there in front of you.....how many more reasons do you want?

Do you think that the world you are in is a simulation, T?
Do you think the world was made.?
Do you think that the world formed itself?
Do you not care?
Did you find an answer in quantum physics, T.

Why would God stick a forbidden tree of good and evil in the middle of everything?.
Why was Eggman sent to a planet of mushrooms?

The Biblical creation myth shows signs of borrowing from the earlier ones,specifically the Babylonian. The OT shows many clues (including epigraphic dating to c 600 B.C) that suggests it was written in Babylon during the Exile.

If we are in a simulation, what is that IT in? A greater reality? Then, since we do not know, the logical option with only speculation to go on is Reality (matter/energy) we know exists and the IT game is pure speculation.That is, it multiplies logical entities without good reason so is the less preferable option.

Science says the world was made and there is evidence in the mess of spare planetary matter about to make that the go - to theory. It was not formed itself any more than a tree grows itself. It was formed out of the existing material by the forces of physics, just as the stars were, and the JW telescope shows us stars forming in gas clouds. No god (should anyone ask) required.

I don't care, in fact. I am interested of course. Cosmic origins is a fascinating question. But whether the cosmos is intelligent or just works naturally is academic. It is only organised religion and how it wants to control, bamboozle and exploit us that I care about.

Quantum physics indeed seems to have confirmed the answer that seemed logically required - something must come from nothing or to be more accurate, the most basic energy particles came from a reality base that was nothinglike enough that it exited without needing to be created.

As to the Biblical creation myth including the Eden stitch - up to make man to blame for the imperfections of creation, including the arms race of survival. When Adam fell He took the whole of creation down with him and God would or could not do anything about it or - on all internal evidence - didn't want to. I credit less and less in the Bible. Not Exodus now, nor anything said and half of what is done in the gospels.

As to the Eggman and planet mushroom, I have no opinion other than it sounds invented.