How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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otseng
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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Athetotheist
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3661

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #3659
No idea what you are asking. This has nothing to do with the objectivity of skeptical arguments.
You wrote:
The fact that skeptics complain about the morality of the God of the Old Testament points that they are using objective moral values to charge God is evil.
Given your claim that "skeptics" have no basis for believing in objective morality, I asked a perfectly reasonable question about what you wrote.


The objective argument isn't that "God is evil". It's that the deity conceptualized in the Bible does immoral things.
To claim God does immoral things implies the usage of objective morality. Otherwise what you do is really nothing morally better or worse than what another does, including God.
You're still trying to invalidate every non-biblical concept of God.

And you're forgetting that I've never denied the existence of objective morality.

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Re: Tomasello - The Origins of Human Morality

Post #3662

Post by boatsnguitars »

otseng wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 6:25 am Michael Tomasello discusses The Origins of Human Morality in Scientific American:
If evolution is about survival of the fittest, how did humans ever become moral creatures? If evolution is each individual maximizing their own fitness, how did humans come to feel that they really ought to help others and be fair to them?
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -morality/

There have been two common responses - altruism and reciprocity:
There have traditionally been two answers to such questions. First, it makes sense for individuals to help their kin, with whom they share genes, a process known as inclusive fitness. Second, situations of reciprocity can arise in which I scratch your back and you scratch mine and we both benefit in the long run.
He admits neither of these explanations are tenable:
Moreover, neither of these traditional explanations gets at what is arguably the essence of human morality—the sense of obligation that human beings feel toward one another.
He presents another possibility - interdependence:
Recently a new approach to looking at the problem of morality has come to the fore. The key insight is a recognition that individuals who live in a social group in which everyone depends on everyone else for their survival and well-being operate with a specific kind of logic. In this logic of interdependence, as we may call it, if I depend on you, then it is in my interest to help ensure your well-being. More generally, if we all depend on one another, then we must all take care of one another.
He says humans were forced into interdependence:
How did this situation come about? The answer has to do with the particular circumstances that forced humans into ever more cooperative ways of life, especially when they are acquiring food and other basic resources.
He compares it with primates where they get their food through dominance:
Our closest living relatives—chimpanzees and bonobos—forage for fruit and vegetation in small parties, but when resources are found, each individual scrambles to obtain food on its own. If any conflict arises, it is solved through dominance: the best fighter wins.
He claims instead human survival depended on mutual collaboration:
Early humans needed new options. One alternative involved scavenging carcasses killed by other animals. But then, according to an account from anthropologist Mary C. Stiner of the University of Arizona, some early humans—the best guess is Homo heidelbergensis some 400,000 years ago—began obtaining most of their food through active collaboration in which individuals formed joint goals to work together in hunting and gathering. Indeed, the collaboration became obligate (compulsory) in that it was essential to their survival.
Even if this is true, what is to keep one group of humans from fighting another group to get their hunting grounds or farmland? There is no mandate that two such groups of people interdepend on each other.
The key point for the evolution of morality is that early human individuals who were socially selected for collaborative foraging through their choice of partners developed new ways of relating to others.
Even if we grant this is true, it would only be descriptive morality, not normative morality. Why ought humans work collaboratively? And even if this was true that it is normative morality, morality encompasses much more than working together. How can collaborative ethics explain why we shouldn't rape or murder or not cheat?
In addition, one's own survival depended on others seeing you as a competent and motivated collaborative partner.
If one claims this, then one can claim anything for evolution. Why not also state one's own survival depends on being moral? Or it's dependent on being a kind and generous person? One can make up any assertion and say one's own survival depends on it.
In experiments from our laboratory, even young children care about how they are being evaluated by others, whereas chimpanzees seemingly do not.
If this is true, it points out humans are intrinsically different than even our alleged closest ancestors. As a matter of fact, the entire argument of the articles distinguishes humans from other animals. So why should morality only evolve in humans?
Of course, any individual could choose to act against a moral norm. But when called to task by other group members, the options were limited: one could ignore their criticism and censure and so place oneself outside the practices and values shared by the culture, perhaps leading to exclusion from the group.
Criticism, censure, and exclusion does not automatically mean someone did something morally wrong. It can be that person is actually the one that is morally right and everyone else is morally wrong.
Modern humans thought of the cultural norms as legitimate means by which they could regulate themselves and their impulses and signal a sense of group identity.
Cultural norms is subjective morality, not objective morality.

Interestingly, he concludes with a resulting potential of conflict between the in-group and the out-group would be war:
As a consequence, it becomes less clear who constitutes a “we” and who is in the out-group. The resulting potential for divisiveness leads to both internal social tensions within a society and, at the level of nations, to outright war—the ultimate example of in- and out-group conflicts.
But if we are to solve our largest challenges as a species, which threaten all human societies alike, we had best be prepared to think of all of humanity as a “we.”
And the question remains: why ought people do that?
Why ought people be moral? Define moral as something you do to make it easier to function among mildly rational, social species.

All of this can easily be explained a number of ways - but it doesn't do anything to get you to OMVs which you keep claiming exist. This has nothing to do with it.

Every time I explain that morals seem to change, or don't seem to be grounded, you retreat to: that doesn't mean OMVs don't exist!

So, let's stop with the pretense.

Admit that under atheism, there are adequate ways to explain moral actions. You might not like them, and they might not be Objective, but there is no lack of explanatory power for why we seem to have a thing called "morals" and that they seem to vary and are poorly understood. It's not because of Original Sin, or whatever.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3663

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2024 2:08 pm Given your claim that "skeptics" have no basis for believing in objective morality, I asked a perfectly reasonable question about what you wrote.
Your question was "Are you admitting that skeptics argue objectively?"

Still have no idea what you're asking, but if you're asking if skeptics can believe in objective morality, sure they can believe in it and argue from it. But the point is skeptics do not have a viable justification for objective morality.
And you're forgetting that I've never denied the existence of objective morality.
Didn't forget. Also didn't forget that you've never offered a justification for that belief except by acknowledging my justification.

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Re: Tomasello - The Origins of Human Morality

Post #3664

Post by otseng »

boatsnguitars wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2024 5:40 am Why ought people be moral? Define moral as something you do to make it easier to function among mildly rational, social species.
Which would fall into subjective morality (or descriptive morality) and would not be objective morality (or normative morality).
In its descriptive sense, "morality" refers to personal or cultural values, codes of conduct or social mores from a society that provides these codes of conduct in which it applies and is accepted by an individual. It does not connote objective claims of right or wrong, but only refers to that which is considered right or wrong.

In its normative sense, "morality" refers to whatever (if anything) is actually right or wrong, which may be independent of the values or mores held by any particular peoples or cultures.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality
Admit that under atheism, there are adequate ways to explain moral actions. You might not like them, and they might not be Objective, but there is no lack of explanatory power for why we seem to have a thing called "morals" and that they seem to vary and are poorly understood.
I fully accept atheism believes in subjective morality and can even justify it. But that's not what I'm arguing against. As you admit above, atheist's morals are not objective.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3665

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #3663
if you're asking if skeptics can believe in objective morality, sure they can believe in it and argue from it. But the point is skeptics do not have a viable justification for objective morality.
I'm asking how it makes sense to claim that "skeptics" can exercise objective morality but not have any basis for it.


And you're forgetting that I've never denied the existence of objective morality.
Didn't forget. Also didn't forget that you've never offered a justification for that belief except by acknowledging my justification.
You seem to be insinuating that I can't justify the objectivity of my morality simply because my theism isn't your theism, trying again to invalidate every non-biblical concept of God.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3666

Post by alexxcJRO »

otseng wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2024 8:03 am

I define objective morality as morality that would apply to everyone at all times at all locations.
Bible:
"13 If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense."(Leviticus 20:13)

Q: Is the above objective morality-a morally right act-what we ought to do all humans at all locations?
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
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Re: Tomasello - The Origins of Human Morality

Post #3667

Post by boatsnguitars »

otseng wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2024 7:22 am I fully accept atheism believes in subjective morality and can even justify it. But that's not what I'm arguing against. As you admit above, atheist's morals are not objective.
I haven't admitted to that. I've been very clear about my position and I wonder why you refuse to acknowledge or understand it.

I believe morals are subjective. I don't know it. I also know that there are ways that morals could be both Objective and no God exists. You seem to wave this possibility off, but it's the same thing to say that the Universe imposes objective morality, just as God was "born" with objective morality. Both could be explained by Brute Fact.

We both reject this, but you go one further and claim there are OMVs and that God imposes them upon us.

You have yet to support this claim. I fully acknowledge we don't know - we can't know - if morals are Objective. You suppose they are, but here is your flaw:

1. God exists
2. God does not exist

A. OMVs exist
B. OMVs do not exist.

The options are:
1A, 2A, 1B, or 2B.

You reject 2B and 2A.

Your argument, as far as I can tell, is an Argument from Ignorance. You seem to not be able to see how they could obtain. However, your ignorance is not evidence.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3668

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2024 10:32 amI'm asking how it makes sense to claim that "skeptics" can exercise objective morality but not have any basis for it.
It's not that there is no basis for objective morality, it's that skeptics have no justification for it. The only viable justification for it is contrary to their fundamental assumptions so they are not willing to accept the justification.
You seem to be insinuating that I can't justify the objectivity of my morality simply because my theism isn't your theism, trying again to invalidate every non-biblical concept of God.
No, I've asked you for your justification of objective morality:
otseng wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2023 5:57 am So, with your theist worldview, please present your argument that your morality is objective.
And you responded with:
Athetotheist wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2023 8:56 am Suffice it to say that I don't pretend to fully understand the nature of the Ultimate Source of Existence.
So here's your opportunity again to present your case for the justification of objective morality within your worldview.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3669

Post by otseng »

alexxcJRO wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2024 1:29 am Bible:
"13 If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense."(Leviticus 20:13)

Q: Is the above objective morality-a morally right act-what we ought to do all humans at all locations?
We'll get to homosexuality later. The current topic is slavery. Do you have anything to chime in on this topic before we explore all the other ethical areas?

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Re: Tomasello - The Origins of Human Morality

Post #3670

Post by otseng »

boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2024 3:41 am I've been very clear about my position and I wonder why you refuse to acknowledge or understand it.

I believe morals are subjective. I don't know it. I also know that there are ways that morals could be both Objective and no God exists. You seem to wave this possibility off, but it's the same thing to say that the Universe imposes objective morality, just as God was "born" with objective morality. Both could be explained by Brute Fact.
Contrary to being clear what is your position, I find it quite ambiguous. You believe morals are subjective, yet also don't know it. Also you know that objective morality could exist and you know no Gods exist simultaneously. How would you know that? If you believe morals are subjective, how could objective morals also exist? How do you even know no Gods exist? What is "Brute Fact"?

We both reject this, but you go one further and claim there are OMVs and that God imposes them upon us. You have yet to support this claim.
As for the existence of OMVs, that's why I presented a list earlier:
otseng wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2024 4:49 pm Is it wrong to rape someone?
Is it wrong to torture babies?
Is it OK to not bring any justice to those responsible for the Holocaust?
Is it acceptable to be unfaithful to your spouse?
Is it fine to steal from someone?
Is it wrong to murder someone?
Was it OK for the kid to cut in front of me yesterday in the grocery store checkout line?
I fully acknowledge we don't know - we can't know - if morals are Objective.
Are the situations I posted above subjective or objective?
You suppose they are, but here is your flaw:

1. God exists
2. God does not exist

A. OMVs exist
B. OMVs do not exist.

The options are:
1A, 2A, 1B, or 2B.

You reject 2B and 2A.
Right, I reject 2, so logically I would also reject 2A and 2B.
Your argument, as far as I can tell, is an Argument from Ignorance. You seem to not be able to see how they could obtain. However, your ignorance is not evidence.
I've presented arguments for the existence of God in the cosmology section. Here's your turn to demonstrate that God does not exist. If you cannot do that, then that would be the one from the position of ignorance.

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