Israel at War with Hamas October 7, 2023

[Diogenes]

There is no question this was a horrific attack by Hamas on Israel that also endangers Palestinians.
To what extent are attacks like this inevitable, considering the history of Israel?

Isn't this just another example of how religious conflict breeds violence?
or
Is it inevitable that strongly held beliefs will always ignite the passions of some?

Perhaps the difference with religions that claim authority from God is that they inspire absolute beliefs, an absolute conviction they are 'right' and therefore anything is justifiable... including following God's orders to kill your own son.

Palestinian land stolen in 1948, more in 1967, then more every day in the West Bank makes acts of terrorism inevitable. Then Netanyahu put a right wing criminal in charge of the 'Ministry of Justice,' and... BIG SURPRISE! ... another war.
"If I go the to write indictment number one, it would go to Israel's Justice Minister YARIV LEVIN. He is the man who drove this insane, corrupt, dishonest effort to basically take over the power of the Supreme Court. With Netanyahu's help, he fractured Israel. He fractured Israeli society. He fractured the Israeli ministry, the military. He fractured the Israeli air force...."
__ Tom Friedman

https://www.rawstory.com/tom-friedman-i ... A-TIAtHv6Y

[foolmefoolsyou]

Palestinian land stolen (by Israelis) in 1948, more in 1967, then more every day in the West Bank makes acts of terrorism inevitable. Then Netanyahu put a right wing criminal in charge of the 'Ministry of Justice,' and... BIG SURPRISE! ... another war.

A war that Israel started and will lose, after all it is written in scripture, so if you are a religious person, here is something you may not be aware of~~~~~~~
Ezekiel 21 King James Version (KJV)
21 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face toward Jerusalem, and drop thy word toward the holy places, and prophesy against the land of Israel,
3 And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am against thee,.,.,...
12 Cry and howl, son of man: for it shall be upon my people, it shall be upon all the princes of Israel:
24 Therefore thus saith the Lord God;Because ye have made your iniquity to be remembered, in that your transgressions are discovered, so that in all your doings your sins do appear; because, I say, that ye are come to remembrance, ye shall be taken with the hand.
25 And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,
29 Whiles they see vanity unto thee, whiles they divine a lie unto thee, to bring thee upon the necks of them that are slain, of the wicked, whose day is come, when their iniquity shall have an end.
I will judge thee in the place where thou wast created, in the land of thy nativity.
And so it has been done, in 1947ad.
31 And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy.
32 Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the Lord have spoken it.

The Lord speaks & it shall be done~~~~~~~

Jewish population at lowest percentage since founding of Israel
Close to the establishment of the state, the Jewish percentage of the population stood at 82.1%, while today it stands at only 73.9%.
https://tinyurl.com/3fjduh72
Europes Jewish population down 60% since 1970, as low as it was 1,000 years ago
https://tinyurl.com/bdt8v2j9
Jewish Population on the Decline in America
https://tinyurl.com/2p95pr3p
World Jewish population drops by 300,000 to 12.9 million
https://tinyurl.com/n33erpbw
(:-

[Purple Knight]

An LGBT person who gets killed would say that their life matters more than land. Human rights is human rights.

But we can have both by just giving everyone a place to live, their way. It's not one or the other.

If someone is born gay in one of the nastier Muslim theocracies, that sucks, and rather than boatloads of people who have no ideological reason they cannot live in their own country and could benefit more from humanitarian aid, this LGBT person is in much greater need of amnesty.

Instead of imagining a foreign country having a rule that is disgusting and against human rights, imagine your own country being bullied by a country that is more enlightened. Imagine if Sweden or Norway declared the US prison systems inhumane and came over here and started changing things to suit themselves.

To fit in my point, also imagine that the state that's being bullied also bullies others. Why defend either side or go after only one side on that matter? A justifiable defense wouldn't be that one side is right and the other side wrong. But yet, this is how it comes across when people call out Israel for it's totalitarian acts while not calling out Palestine for its own anti-Democracy acts. I don't see any unbiased argument with human rights being the standard. It makes no sense for someone to be against Occupation while also allowing for the occupiers to commit their own crimes.

Ironically, there are reports that gay Palestinians try to flee to Israel or seek Asylum there.

I'm not saying Israel can't defend itself. I'm saying it can't occupy and rule a People that doesn't want that. Bombing hospitals and killing innocents is a lot worse when you're doing it to people fighting for their right to exist, and live how they want to live.

Like I said draw some lines. Fair ones. And if Israel wants to bring down a draconian boot on Palestinians crossing those lines, I completely understand.

But how can the world be against sweeping retaliation against immigrants in Western or Asian countries, and for sweeping retaliation from Israel, when it's not even their land? Myanmar has a Muslim problem and they keep them isolated. For this, people denounce Myanmar. People call for more fairness for the Rohingya. People scream, "Discrimination!" and rightly. So why is Israel immune? Why is only Israel allowed to return acts of terror with sweeping violence? Why is only Israel allowed to treat people as non-people?

[AgnosticBoy]

[Replying to foolmefoolsyou in post #120]
It's gets to a point where we should be asking if the Arabs or Jews deserve that land? Or does any side deserve our support for having that land? You give it to either one and they will perpetuate human rights abuses if none of them are Democracies. You may as well argue if Stalin or Hitler should have that land. That's the logic if human rights abuses is the standard.

[AgnosticBoy]

I'm not saying Israel can't defend itself. I'm saying it can't occupy and rule a People that doesn't want that. Bombing hospitals and killing innocents is a lot worse when you're doing it to people fighting for their right to exist, and live how they want to live.

Fighting for your right to exists should not involve killing babies and raping women. Hamas would have been seen as being justified had they gone after military targets in Israel instead of attacking civilians.

Like I said draw some lines. Fair ones. And if Israel wants to bring down a draconian boot on Palestinians crossing those lines, I completely understand.

But how can the world be against sweeping retaliation against immigrants in Western or Asian countries, and for sweeping retaliation from Israel, when it's not even their land?

My position is not that Israel is immune from anything. But rather what I try to get people to see is what are they defending. The pro-Palestine side seem oblivious to the fact that Palestine is not a democracy, as if, occupation is the only type of wrong. Sure, Israel has done plenty of wrong, but does that justify defending people who commit their own wrong? Do away with the occupiers but then let the LGBT murderers (and abusers of other human rights) take their place? That does not make for a good moral case.

[William]

While I have no horse in this particular race, my observations are as follows.

Israel operates on Old Testament concepts (eye for an eye) and thus, the Christian West is uncomfortable/conflicted because they are more supportive of the New Testament concept/principles (turn the other cheek).

From a modern perspective, while it may break international law (re what is right and wrong action in states of war) for an Israelite sniper to target Palestinian children, the children are used as shields by the Hamas (and this likewise should be against international war-law) and not only that, but will very likely be used to promote the ideology of the Hamas (to eradicate Jews from the face of the earth) and thus become instruments of Hamas themselves as they grow and mature into young adults.

Thus, when one deals with the problem at or as close to its source as possible, there is justification in targeting said children.

Since the reestablishment of the State of Israel, there has been hope restored in the collective Jewish consciousness - something which has endured hundreds of years of pressure and adaptation in foreign lands they collectively were the refugees of ...to protect and nurture...said hope they would one day have their own "home" again.

No other people on earth know more about (can empathize with) what it means to be refugees - not "occupying" those people who allowed them to settle in their territory but integrating and even teaching new ways of doing things. Not every territory treated the Jews as equals either.

As a "people" none can occupy a host-countries lands sufficiently to establish zones which are clearly marked as "Jewish" (or "other" in general) because - for that to happen sufficiently the Jews needed their own home-land restored to them, in order for this to properly occur and they could be "seen" by the rest of the world as being representative of "Jewishness" in accordance with their own rules and beliefs as a culture.

The overthrow of the Ottoman Empire (which historically murdered Christians) and subsequent gifting of unused lands by the British to the Jewish representatives, allowed for that building to happen - only from that moment to this - there has been murderous resistance to the State of Israel by every territory surrounding Israel.

Even so, the Jews continued to turn a wasteland into a functioning State and while every other functioning state of democracy had no such issues to deal with, to abandon support of Israel after helping to set it up, would be gross negligence - and so the west continues to support Israel in the name of democracy.

Peculiar to all of this observation - the words from PK "The reason there aren't random blue people where there weren't any yesterday, is that a People doesn't just pop up without having existed for a long time. And they existed somewhere. Everyone belongs somewhere, therefore everyone should have some land."

Indeed. So we are somewhat confused as to the Jews because they have a history which is related to the idea of "just popping up" and having no homeland from where they derived.

But we best not forget that human beings migrated all over the face of the earth and before settlement was established (through farming/gardening) the general concept would have been more along the lines of "The earth is our territory" and land would have been seen in this manner - as something which only had its own natural boarders, rather than the man-made ones which developed upon settlements.


To statement that "only Israel doesn't understand this" seems peculiar because it implies Israel is somehow the "extraterrestrial" and goes some way to explain how they "just popped up" due to their God placing them here, to educate the rest of us (Gentiles) on "what God wants", as per their cultural beliefs expressed in their "Bible".

(In this example "YHVH" must also be regarded as "extraterrestrial")

To carry this concept further - if "random blue people" did pop up and land on our planet asking for a piece of land to call their own and to develop as they wanted, (in line with farming/gardening practices) would the rest of us let them?

If one were to argue that force was used in assisting Jews to set up a land of their own, so what? That is the nature of settlement. Would we rather it had continued being the Ottoman Empire murdering Christians, than a People turning (also by force) a wasteland into a functional State, and defending themselves against other Peoples who have and continue to make it public (world-stage) knowledge that Jews are not welcome in their territory and being justified in resorting to murder because of that sentiment?

Is that how we humans behave/would behave against an extraterrestrial Peoples asking for our help? Is that what we as a collective people/species are?

If not, then what are our options? Do we recognize that which is against humanity overall, and cut it out of our future, for the sake of getting on with the building rather that the destroying?

[alexxcJRO]

There's no moral high ground in terms of Human rights, when we're talking about two totalitarian style governments. The freedom of opinion that people are expressing here would not be allowed in Palestine. You could not say something against the Quran and get away with it. So if human rights is really the standard here, we shouldn't be supporting either side, unless there's a bias for one side, which seems to be the case.

Supporting the side that is being denied land to live on, is more basic to human rights than any other concerns.

No, you wouldn't get freedom of opinion in Palestine and that's fine. They want to live their way, and I support that. I also want to live my way, with freedom of opinion. If people stop taking each other's land, everyone can be reasonably happy.

People have taken land from each other since the beginning of human civilization.

Q: Is really a Zod like mentality a good mentality?

Q: Is committing unspeakable acts of evil(maybe even genocide) in the process of accomplishing the utopia "from the river to the sea" justified?

Committing unspeakable acts of evil(maybe even genocide) in the process to take land, preserve land is worthless for in the end borders will change, cultures will change, dissolve and ultimately evolve, metamorphose into a total different thing.

Coexistence is the key.

[foolmefoolsyou]

Facts are facts which cannot be denied.
"Israel" was a person, not a state.
Today Israel is "NOT" a democracy, it never was.
Israel got its existence using terrorism.
Israel's great contribution to the world is selling flowers and they come by way of funerals, funerals perpetuated by IDF murdering.
It is a circle jerk economy, but it is all they have.
Soon, rather than later, Boboyahoo will be ousted, thrown to the wolves.
Gaza will be given $$$billions to restore what the Zionists have destroyed resulting in an economic boom for the Palestinian people.
I suggest you buy a big bag of popcorn, sit in front of your TV and watch the end of Zionism right before your eyes.
In closing, Boboyahoo is a dead man walking, may he rest in peace.

[William]

Coexistence is the key.

Such is not the stated agenda of Hamas.

[foolmefoolsyou]

Coexistence is the key.

Totally agree, it is the two (2) state solution

Such is not the stated agenda of Hamas.

Israel has been attacking Gaza for decades, trying to ethnically cleans the land for Zion settlements
Timeline: Israels attacks on Gaza since 2005
This is the latest assault by Israel on Gaza since the 11-day war in May 2021 killed hundreds and wounded thousands.
https://tinyurl.com/mrxuun7a
Effects of the Gaza War (20082009)
There are multiple humanitarian, medical, economic, and industrial effects of the 20082009 Gaza War which started with the Israeli air strikes on 27 December 2008 and ended on 18 January with a cease-fire implemented unilaterally by Israel, and later the same day by Hamas and other Palestinian factions. The cease-fire followed twenty-two days of bombardment by land, sea and air which left over 1,300 Palestinians dead and over 5,000 injured, and the death of 13 Israelis. The United Nations Development Programme warned that there will be long-term consequences of the attacks on Gaza because the livelihoods and assets of tens of thousands of Gaza civilians have been affected
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_o ... 80%932009)

The 2014 Gaza War, also known as Operation Protective Edge (Hebrew: , romanized: Miv'tza Tzuk Eitan, lit. 'Operation Strong Cliff'), was a military operation launched by Israel on 8 July 2014 in the Gaza Strip, a Palestinian territory that has been governed by Hamas since 2007. Following the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers in the West Bank by Hamas-affiliated Palestinian militants, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) initiated Operation Brother's Keeper, in which some 350 Palestinians, including nearly all of the active Hamas militants in the West Bank, were arrested. Hamas subsequently fired a greater number of rockets into Israel from the Gaza Strip,
The Israeli military operation aimed to stop rocket fire into Israel from the Gaza Strip.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War

The fight between the Israelis and the Palestinian people has ben going on for decades but finally we will see the end, with Israel cast out with the trash they brought in.
.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,,Sadly, the smell will linger for a while.

[Donray]

Do people know that there was never a Palestine County?

All you Muslim terrorist supporters tell me how many Jewish tersest actions were there in the USA compered to Muslim terrorist attacks? What about in England? Germany?