Israel at War with Hamas October 7, 2023

[Diogenes]

There is no question this was a horrific attack by Hamas on Israel that also endangers Palestinians.
To what extent are attacks like this inevitable, considering the history of Israel?

Isn't this just another example of how religious conflict breeds violence?
or
Is it inevitable that strongly held beliefs will always ignite the passions of some?

Perhaps the difference with religions that claim authority from God is that they inspire absolute beliefs, an absolute conviction they are 'right' and therefore anything is justifiable... including following God's orders to kill your own son.

Palestinian land stolen in 1948, more in 1967, then more every day in the West Bank makes acts of terrorism inevitable. Then Netanyahu put a right wing criminal in charge of the 'Ministry of Justice,' and... BIG SURPRISE! ... another war.
"If I go the to write indictment number one, it would go to Israel's Justice Minister YARIV LEVIN. He is the man who drove this insane, corrupt, dishonest effort to basically take over the power of the Supreme Court. With Netanyahu's help, he fractured Israel. He fractured Israeli society. He fractured the Israeli ministry, the military. He fractured the Israeli air force...."
__ Tom Friedman

https://www.rawstory.com/tom-friedman-i ... A-TIAtHv6Y

[Athetotheist]

I'm aware that terrorist attacks have been carried out, but I believe that we should be aware of everything which has been going on.

It's can be a good thing to be aware of as much of information as possible, but it's also important to be aware of what is proven or factual. That's where your claim about white phosphorous falls short. You've stated it as if it is fact, and offered it up as a response to a request for proof, but failed to show that it has been proven beyond just an accusation and unverified videos. There's a reason that news media often say that "we have not been able to independently verify this or that".

As a non-partisan/agnostic, I'd rather default to providing both sides of the story or specify not knowing if it's proven, when there's a lack of verifiable evidence. Here's an example of such perspective on the same issue:

Human Rights Watch said that videos recorded in Lebanon and Gaza on Tuesday and Wednesday showed airdropped white phosphorus artillery rounds an assessment that was vehemently denied by Israeli officials. Human Rights Watch said that its analysis was corroborated through two interviews with witnesses on the ground who described a distinctive garlic-like smell that is a signature of white phosphorus.

A spokesperson for the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said:"The current accusation made against the IDF regarding the use of white phosphorus in Gaza is unequivocally false. The IDF has not deployed the use of such munitions." A spokesperson for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not respond to a request for comment.

NBC News, which did not have reporters present when the strikes occurred in Gaza and Lebanon, has not been able to independently verify Human Rights Watch's claims.

Does not being verified by NBC News mean that it hasn't been verified?

What do you think we're seeing in the image on the page I linked to? Do you have cause to believe that some deception is involved in the image?


Earlier I raised the question of how the IDF knows that Hamas targets are present where it strikes.

Meanwhile, Bash asked Major Doron Spielman twice if the IDF could provide evidence supporting its claims that a senior Hamas leader was killed. Spielman did not offer any direct evidence, saying "it will become clear" when "that terrorist does not surface."

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/media/ne ... index.html

Less-than-satisfying answers like that don't inspire much confidence in the claims of the IDF.

And there are those more notable than I who feel that the IDF may be walking a thin line.

As scrutiny of the attack grew, the United Nations Human Rights Office expressed concern that the airstrikes on the refugee camp "could amount to war crimes."

"Given the high number of civilian casualties and the scale of destruction following Israeli airstrikes on Jabalya refugee camp, we have serious concerns that these are disproportionate attacks that could amount to war crimes," it said.
(ibid.)


Edit:

Israel used white phosphorus in Gaza and Lebanon on Tuesday this week, according to Human Rights Watch. Video of what appears to be white phosphorus released over Gaza City on Wednesday has been separately verified as authentic by The Washington Post.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... l-what-is/

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #56]

So, why didn't you bring up all the suicide bombers that killed thousands of Iseral civilians if you want to point out both sides?

Why don't you want to refer to the people that attacked the USA as Muslim terrorists???

Seems to be you just want to defend Muslims for all their terrorist tactics. I don't remember anything about Iseral suicide bombers killing civilians.

Please answer: Who started this current war? Please use only current events. Did Palestine attack Iseral in October 2023?

Palestine did not attack Israel in October 2023.

Hamas attacked Israel in October 2023, which I have neither denied nor tried to defend. As I indicated previously, my intent is to tell the side of the story which you may not get from certain other sources. I'm trying to do you a service by helping you gain a sense of perspective. We have to look at the big picture, as ugly as it may seem to us.

[AgnosticBoy]

Does not being verified by NBC News mean that it hasn't been verified?

That was never my claim. There should be independent verification by any reputable source, and I could not find that earlier (found only sources quoting HRW). Thank you for following up with that evidence:

Edit:

Israel used white phosphorus in Gaza and Lebanon on Tuesday this week, according to Human Rights Watch. Video of what appears to be white phosphorus released over Gaza City on Wednesday has been separately verified as authentic by The Washington Post.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... l-what-is/

Israel has denied that it used white phosphorous munitions but they haven't provided any evidence explaining the videos beyond just denying it happened.

What do you think we're seeing in the image on the page I linked to? Do you have cause to believe that some deception is involved in the image?

Images can be photoshopped, staged, the missele could come from somewhere else, including from the Palestinian groups themselves. All of these factors aren't unprecedented seeing that Israel was accused of bombing a hospital. Those reports also came with videos, multiple news agencies reporting that it was Israel, and witness accounts. It turns out upon further assessment that the rocket that struck the hospital was fired by the Islamic Jihad group from within Palestine. It took Israel bringing up that evidence for people to begin to notice that, and then that was later corroborated by US intelligence and other media agencies. That's why I can't go by just one site or videos.

[AgnosticBoy]

Here's one important aspect that I don't hear much about from the pro-Palestinian side...

We hear a lot about the human rights abuses toward the Palestinians, but what I question is if the Palestinian government is itself committing human rights violations, and if so is that the government that we want to look forward to. In other words, does free Palestine also include having a Democracy in place after Palestine is free? Would it be good to free it just to have it taken over by a totalitarian type government that is hostile to LGBT, to religious minorities, and other democratic values? Would Sharia law become the law of the land?

The Palestinian Authority Basic Law provides for an elected president and legislative council. There have been no elections in the West Bank and Gaza for those positions since 2006, and President Mahmoud Abbas has remained in office despite the expiration of his four-year term in 2009.

Significant human rights issues included:

1) With respect to the Palestinian Authority: credible reports of unlawful or arbitrary killings by Palestinian Authority officials; torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment by Palestinian Authority officials; arbitrary arrest or detention; political prisoners and detainees; significant problems with the independence of the judiciary; arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy; serious restrictions on free expression and media, including violence, threats of violence, unjustified arrests and prosecutions against journalists, and censorship; serious restrictions on internet freedom; substantial interference with the freedom of peaceful assembly and freedom of association, including harassment of nongovernmental organizations; serious and unreasonable restrictions on political participation, since the Palestinian Authority has not held a national election since 2006; serious government corruption; lack of investigation of and accountability for gender-based violence; crimes, violence, and threats of violence motivated by anti-Semitism; crimes involving violence and threats of violence targeting lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, or intersex persons; and reports of the worst forms of child labor.

Source: https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-coun ... -and-gaza/

[Donray]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #62]

Are you ignorant of the fact the Hamas is the government in Gaza therefore it is Palestine that attacked Iseal. Let's look at the Hamas charter.

Article 6 Hamas is uniquely Palestinian,[1] and "strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned". It claims that the world will descend into chaos and war without Islam, quoting Muhammad Iqbal.[1][21]

Article 13 There is no negotiated settlement possible. Jihad is the only answer.[1]


Again, why are you defending Musalim Palestine terrorists that attacked Iseral killing civilians.

You never answered how many Palestinians were killed as a result of Jewish suicide bombers. WHY????

Your posts are very biased towards terrorists.

You are refusing to answer my questions, WHY?

[AgnosticBoy]

Earlier I raised the question of how the IDF knows that Hamas targets are present where it strikes.

Here are some perspectives that would answer some of your points about civilian deaths caused by Israel, and how they know that they are targeting Hamas when bombing civilian areas:

JERUSALEM, Nov 5 (Reuters) - The Israeli military on Sunday said it has exposed a network of Hamas tunnels, command centres and rocket launchers beneath and adjacent to hospitals in northern Gaza.

The Islamist group Hamas denies doing so and has accused Israel of spreading lies.

During the media briefing, Hagari presented videos, photographs and audio recordings that he said demonstrated Hamas' strategy of using hospitals as cover and preventing civilians from leaving combat zones.

Hagari has now made similar allegations for two other hospitals in northern Gaza - the Qatari-funded Sheikh Hamad Hospital and a hospital built by groups from Indonesia.

Two of the videos of the Qatari hospital showed an opening to Hamas tunnels and Hamas gunmen firing at Israeli soldiers from within the hospital, Hagari said. One satellite image shows rocket launchers located across the street from the Indonesian hospital, he said.

Source: Reuters

Also, here's a report published in Lawfare, that documents some of Hamas' use of human shields in Gaza:

Hamas most common uses of human shields include:
Firing rockets, artillery, and mortars from or in proximity to heavily populated civilian areas, often from or
near facilities which should be protected according to the Geneva Convention (e.g. schools, hospitals,
or mosques).
Locating military or security-related infrastructures such as HQs, bases, armouries, access routes,
lathes,3
or defensive positions within or in proximity to civilian areas.
Protecting terrorists houses and military facilities, or rescuing terrorists who were besieged or
warned by the IDF.4
Combating the IDF from or in proximity to residential and commercial areas, including using civilians for
intelligence gathering missions

There are also reports that Hamas wants the civilians to remain in place and not evacuate from conflict areas. I would guess two reasons for that would not only be to use the civilians as human shields, but to also put Israel in a bad spotlight for killing lots of civilians.

Eyad al-Bozom, a Hamas spokesman, said at an Oct. 13 news conference, "We tell the people of northern Gaza and from Gaza City, stay put in your homes, and your places." John Kirby, the U.S. National Security Council spokesman, correctly responded, "the Hamas counterorder telling Palestinians in Gaza to stay at home" means Hamas is using these civilians as "human shields."

Al-Bozom held his news conference at Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, literally using the hospitals patients as human shields to protect his call for other Gaza civilians to remain as human shields. Hamas has a long history of using Shifa Hospital as a military headquarters, in yet another violation of the prohibition on using human shields.

Source: The Hill

None of this of course justifies Israel not taking as much precautions as possible to prevent civilian deaths. But it does go to show the reality of why it may be nearly impossible to take out Hamas while avoiding a large number of casualties.

[Purple Knight]

Can the people defending the terrorist actions of the Palestine people please tell me what you think should be the response if Canada government fired a rocket attack on New York city and killed 3000 people?

It would be war.

Should Israel have the right to defend its people?

Yes, but they ought not invade or allow settlers to go where they're not wanted. What do you think I should expect would happen to me if me and many of my fellows decided to squat on a large swath of France and call it part of America now, and fight back with force if France tried to remove me, saying I was defending my People? And would you really want America to take my side? The only way anyone would rationally take my side is if international law dealt with (or was going to deal with) the problem and eject me, but I was brutally murdered anyway.

How much of our disgust reaction when people use horrible methods to defend themselves is just born out of how spoilt we are, never having been without a system above us that is decently free from corruption and will, more often than not, resolve issues fairly?

A lot, if you ask me.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Donray in post #65

Are you ignorant of the fact the Hamas is the government in Gaza therefore it is Palestine that attacked Iseal.

Governments don't always do a good job representing their people, wouldn't you agree?

You never answered how many Palestinians were killed as a result of Jewish suicide bombers. WHY????

Because suicide bombing isn't a tactic Israel uses.

You never answered how the US could justify a military occupation of Canada.

[Donray]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #68]

If Canada stated attacking the USA then we should protect our people and remove the government and miliary people that started the attack and the take over as much land as necessary to do so, Now answer all my questions.

Why are you defending Muslim terrorists?

How should Iseral handle an attack by Palestine? What should they do to make sure it does not happen again??

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Donray in post #69

If Canada stated attacking the USA then we should protect our people and remove the government and miliary people that started the attack and the take over as much land as necessary to do so

And then do what with it? Establish illegal settlements for our own citizens to live in?

As Noam Chomsky said, Israel had a choice between expansion and security and it chose expansion.

Why are you defending Muslim terrorists?

Flashback to post-9/11 2001, when the same question would be asked of anyone who suggested that decades of our own foreign policy might have played a role in what happened. Terrorism is always despicable and evil, but pointing out that it doesn't happen in a vacuum doesn't amount to defending terrorists.

Where have I said one word in defense of the actions of Hamas?

How should Iseral handle an attack by Palestine? What should they do to make sure it does not happen again??

Step 1. End the occupation.

Step 2. Comply with the rest of the UN resolution adopted on December 30th of last year ["Israeli practices and settlement activities affecting the rights of the Palestinian people and other Arabs of the occupied territories"].

Step 3. De-emphasize military "payback" and get more serious about intelligence, so as not to be taken by surprise.