Do we lose free will in Heaven?

[Metatron]

In innumerable threads at this forum, I've been told ad nauseum that God allows all sorts of horrible things to happen in the world because of the importance he attaches to man's free will. It is argued that man must be allowed to choose evil otherwise he is effectively God's puppet with no will of his own.

However, it is also argued that sin does not exist in Heaven. Why is this? Is it because man no longer possesses free will in Heaven? Is free will no longer important to God? Would that not make the saved into willless automatons by the same logic Christians use when discussing the problem of evil?

Do we lose free will in Heaven?

[wrekk]

Much like a dog who can not tell the difference,

Please elaborate on this point. How is it exactly a dog "can not tell the difference"? Are you saying that a dog doesn't know bad from good?

[Metatron]

Addressing only the OP -

I don't personally have any issues with loss of free will in heaven. Once a person has "made it" to heaven, I would think it would almost be a relief not to have the burden of free will and the responsibility that goes with it.

My personal belief is that Heaven would abide by a much simpler form of free will. Like the mystical Adam and Eve, heaven includes creatures in a state of innocent bliss, unaware of good or evil. Much like a dog who can not tell the difference, souls would lose that ability, and thus the concerns associated with it. This would allow for unrestrained joy and bliss for those worshiping their creator.

Just my opinion.

If this joy and bliss in a paradise without free will is God's plan for us, then why didn't he just set it up like that in THE FIRST PLACE!!!

Why make all of mankind go through pain, suffering, and death. Why give use free will so that most of mankind can be condemned to Hell? If we had simply been born into this willless Heaven in the first place, we would all be good and have no need for salvation. Instead, everyone suffers during life and supposedly most of us will suffer for eternity after death.

This is mercy and compassion????

[achilles12604]

Much like a dog who can not tell the difference,

Please elaborate on this point. How is it exactly a dog "can not tell the difference"? Are you saying that a dog doesn't know bad from good?

Basically yes. A dog (epsecially a wild one) has no real concept of good or evil as humans do. We are aware of many things that are beyond the comprehension of animals. Morals are one of these things.

Hence the phrase, "Its a dog's life." Laying out in the sun, chasing animals, and living totally carefree - a dog's life.

[Ghost_of_Amityville]

Addressing only the OP -

I don't personally have any issues with loss of free will in heaven. Once a person has "made it" to heaven, I would think it would almost be a relief not to have the burden of free will and the responsibility that goes with it.

My personal belief is that Heaven would abide by a much simpler form of free will. Like the mystical Adam and Eve, heaven includes creatures in a state of innocent bliss, unaware of good or evil. Much like a dog who can not tell the difference, souls would lose that ability, and thus the concerns associated with it. This would allow for unrestrained joy and bliss for those worshiping their creator.

Just my opinion.

If this joy and bliss in a paradise without free will is God's plan for us, then why didn't he just set it up like that in THE FIRST PLACE!!!

Why make all of mankind go through pain, suffering, and death. Why give use free will so that most of mankind can be condemned to Hell? If we had simply been born into this willless Heaven in the first place, we would all be good and have no need for salvation. Instead, everyone suffers during life and supposedly most of us will suffer for eternity after death.

This is mercy and compassion????

It's probably not as linear as you're making it out to be. Garden of Eden bliss --> Fall of Man --> Mortal life --> Death --> Heaven. Like I've tried to explain to others, I was always taught that the "eternal life" that Jesus promised referred more to quality of life rather than duration. That linear equation I just spelled out is probably just an explantion of creaturely status. Even though you're a mortal being now, you will ultimately be fulfilled (i.e. experience a much better quality of existence, which wont include death, something negative).

[achilles12604]

Addressing only the OP -

I don't personally have any issues with loss of free will in heaven. Once a person has "made it" to heaven, I would think it would almost be a relief not to have the burden of free will and the responsibility that goes with it.

My personal belief is that Heaven would abide by a much simpler form of free will. Like the mystical Adam and Eve, heaven includes creatures in a state of innocent bliss, unaware of good or evil. Much like a dog who can not tell the difference, souls would lose that ability, and thus the concerns associated with it. This would allow for unrestrained joy and bliss for those worshiping their creator.

Just my opinion.

If this joy and bliss in a paradise without free will is God's plan for us, then why didn't he just set it up like that in THE FIRST PLACE!!!

Why make all of mankind go through pain, suffering, and death. Why give use free will so that most of mankind can be condemned to Hell? If we had simply been born into this willless Heaven in the first place, we would all be good and have no need for salvation. Instead, everyone suffers during life and supposedly most of us will suffer for eternity after death.

This is mercy and compassion????

As I pointed out before, traditional Christian dogma that I was taught while young, was that the point of creation was to have followers who woud CHOSE to be with him. With this in mind, it could be possible that once a soul has chosen to be with God, he allows it to be released from the burdens of this earth including free will. This world could be the "prooving ground" for eternal life.

[McCulloch]

Basically yes. A dog has no real concept of good or evil as humans do.

How do you know this?

We are aware of many things that are beyond the comprehension of [other] animals.

Big brain + ability for complex communication + retention of data across many generations = increased collective and individual knowledge.

Morals are one of these things.

How do you know this? Perhaps, like in other things, it is a matter of degree. Dogs have much greater communicative ability, problem solving skills and maternal care than most fish, yet less than most primates. Why not morals too?

[Metatron]

Addressing only the OP -

I don't personally have any issues with loss of free will in heaven. Once a person has "made it" to heaven, I would think it would almost be a relief not to have the burden of free will and the responsibility that goes with it.

My personal belief is that Heaven would abide by a much simpler form of free will. Like the mystical Adam and Eve, heaven includes creatures in a state of innocent bliss, unaware of good or evil. Much like a dog who can not tell the difference, souls would lose that ability, and thus the concerns associated with it. This would allow for unrestrained joy and bliss for those worshiping their creator.

Just my opinion.

If this joy and bliss in a paradise without free will is God's plan for us, then why didn't he just set it up like that in THE FIRST PLACE!!!

Why make all of mankind go through pain, suffering, and death. Why give use free will so that most of mankind can be condemned to Hell? If we had simply been born into this willless Heaven in the first place, we would all be good and have no need for salvation. Instead, everyone suffers during life and supposedly most of us will suffer for eternity after death.

This is mercy and compassion????

As I pointed out before, traditional Christian dogma that I was taught while young, was that the point of creation was to have followers who woud CHOSE to be with him. With this in mind, it could be possible that once a soul has chosen to be with God, he allows it to be released from the burdens of this earth including free will. This world could be the "prooving ground" for eternal life.

I see little point in going through this free will screening process if all he wanted as an end product was a group of willless drones singing endless hosannahs to his eternal glory! It's like screening a group of people with an IQ test and then lobotomizing them when it's all said and done.

[achilles12604]

Basically yes. A dog has no real concept of good or evil as humans do.

How do you know this?

We are aware of many things that are beyond the comprehension of [other] animals.

Big brain + ability for complex communication + retention of data across many generations = increased collective and individual knowledge.

Morals are one of these things.

How do you know this? Perhaps, like in other things, it is a matter of degree. Dogs have much greater communicative ability, problem solving skills and maternal care than most fish, yet less than most primates. Why not morals too?

I don't wish to get WAY off topic on something as trivial as my example of blissful ignorance.

My point was that in heaven we would become unaware of good and evil again like we were supposed to be in "the garden". A Dog's life was simply another analogy to better describe my primary point and is therefore not worth a side debate here.

[twobitsmedia]

Addressing only the OP -

I don't personally have any issues with loss of free will in heaven. Once a person has "made it" to heaven, I would think it would almost be a relief not to have the burden of free will and the responsibility that goes with it.

My personal belief is that Heaven would abide by a much simpler form of free will. Like the mystical Adam and Eve, heaven includes creatures in a state of innocent bliss, unaware of good or evil. Much like a dog who can not tell the difference, souls would lose that ability, and thus the concerns associated with it. This would allow for unrestrained joy and bliss for those worshiping their creator.

Just my opinion.

If this joy and bliss in a paradise without free will is God's plan for us, then why didn't he just set it up like that in THE FIRST PLACE!!!

Why make all of mankind go through pain, suffering, and death. Why give use free will so that most of mankind can be condemned to Hell? If we had simply been born into this willless Heaven in the first place, we would all be good and have no need for salvation. Instead, everyone suffers during life and supposedly most of us will suffer for eternity after death.

This is mercy and compassion????

As I pointed out before, traditional Christian dogma that I was taught while young, was that the point of creation was to have followers who woud CHOSE to be with him. With this in mind, it could be possible that once a soul has chosen to be with God, he allows it to be released from the burdens of this earth including free will. This world could be the "prooving ground" for eternal life.

Are you implying that "free will" is a burden?

[achilles12604]

Addressing only the OP -

I don't personally have any issues with loss of free will in heaven. Once a person has "made it" to heaven, I would think it would almost be a relief not to have the burden of free will and the responsibility that goes with it.

My personal belief is that Heaven would abide by a much simpler form of free will. Like the mystical Adam and Eve, heaven includes creatures in a state of innocent bliss, unaware of good or evil. Much like a dog who can not tell the difference, souls would lose that ability, and thus the concerns associated with it. This would allow for unrestrained joy and bliss for those worshiping their creator.

Just my opinion.

If this joy and bliss in a paradise without free will is God's plan for us, then why didn't he just set it up like that in THE FIRST PLACE!!!

Why make all of mankind go through pain, suffering, and death. Why give use free will so that most of mankind can be condemned to Hell? If we had simply been born into this willless Heaven in the first place, we would all be good and have no need for salvation. Instead, everyone suffers during life and supposedly most of us will suffer for eternity after death.

This is mercy and compassion????

As I pointed out before, traditional Christian dogma that I was taught while young, was that the point of creation was to have followers who would CHOSE to be with him. With this in mind, it could be possible that once a soul has chosen to be with God, he allows it to be released from the burdens of this earth including free will. This world could be the "prooving ground" for eternal life.

Are you implying that "free will" is a burden?

In the sense that with it we are held accountable where as without, it would be impossible to demand accountability from us - yes.

As with ANY form of advancement or "power", responsibility soon follows. With great power comes great responsibility is the all to often quoted phrase from Marvel comics new movie. But in this case it is accurate.

With great free will comes great responsibility . . .

So yes, in this sense free will is a burden.

Another way of putting this would be, "Ignorance is bliss"