So what would make a secular scientist believe in GOD?

[LittleNipper]

Presented here, so that we may have a place to start is one biochemist's (Dr, Sy Garte) journey from staunch atheist to firm believer: So, why are you a believer, or what would you need to become a believer in some Creator GOD.

[LittleNipper]

[Replying to LittleNipper in post #25]

Since your view was swayed by a Hindi ...

They practiced the Hindu religion, but may well have spoken Hindi (a language). But their religion wasn't the point ... it was that discussions with them first got me interested in studying the different religions and gods humans had invented and led me to conclude that none of them were likely to be valid.

... perhaps the changed perception of a Hindi will get you to rediscover that there are major differences regarding faith.

Again, the religion (Hindu) wasn't the point. They could have practiced any religion besides the one I was indoctrinated with as a child. The very fact that there are major differences regarding faith should make you question why that is, and what implications it has for any one religion or god being valid over any other (or whether any of them are valid at all).

A person may believe in the gods but how he or she perceives him or herself in relationship to such can be mechanical and founded on TRADITIONS rather than on a personal relationship with GOD the FATHER. Traditions do not improve one's relationship with GOD but rather require one to earn his place with GOD. One cannot be good enough to please GOD.

A lot of people just stay in the religion they were indoctrinated into as children and don't give it much thought. I knew plenty of people like this who just assume everything is as they'd been taught and follow along with the process throughout their lives. I decided to investigate the issue more and came to a different conclusion.

One cannot be good enough to please GOD.

It depends on how "GOD" is defined by the human(s) who invented it/them. Humans have invented thousands of gods over the millennia, with many different characteristics. The one thing they all have in common is being indistinguishable from nonexistence.

Did you ever actually prayed to GOD, and what was it you prayed for (if I might be so bold)?

[Miles]

So what would make a secular scientist believe in GOD?

I believe it would be scientific proof (evidence collected and processed through the scientific method) that he exists. Short of that, nothing, except an abandonment of his/her secularism or an onset of delirium, dementia, or depression.

.

I think if you willingly watch this episode of the Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special speaking with special guest William Lane Craig, you will get an honest well thought out view. I'm not saying that you will agree; however, Mr. Ben Shapiro is brilliant and Jewish and having a meaningful discussion with Mr. William Craig who is a very astute Christian. And the proof of GOD does come up, and there is a very logical reason for GOD. So, if you are indeed interested I would suggest listening to this discussion:

I followed it up to the nine minuet mark, after which I realized Craig was clearly injecting an inappropriate god-bias into his argument. To wit.

Craig speaking-

"For me, my favorite argument for the existence of god that I find most compelling is a version of the cosmological argument, which goes like this:

1. whatever begins to exist has a cause [ . . . . .]

2. the universe began to exist [. . . . . ]

3.. therefore: the universe has a cause.

And when you do a conceptual analysis of what it is to be a cause of the universe you arrive at a being which is an uncaused, beginningless, timeless, spaceless, enormously powerful personal creator of the universe. So for me that is a very convincing argument for god."

Two questions for William Lane Craig:

1. Why would I necessarily arrive at a being? You never included a being in your syllogism, or made an argument for one.

2. Why would this being necessarily be a personal creator? You never included a personal creator in your syllogism, or made an argument for one.


Sloppy philosophizing or just sloppy logic? In any case I gotta give you an on this.

.

The Bible says that GOD is SPIRIT, so clearly, except what the MESSIAH emptied HIMSELF and took on a form of flesh to be both SON of GOD and SON of MAN, GOD isn't a human being. There nothing whatsoever "inappropriate" about a "GOD" bias point of view. If there were, then a secular point of view would be just as bias and unseemly. While YOU don't believe in the existence of GOD, doesn't make someone's view that includes one "inappropriate". Such might not be to your liking, but I can live with your "atheism", you should be able to bear someone's Christianity without stressing.

Then YOU answer the two questions I posed to Craig regarding his argument.


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[DrNoGods]

[Replying to LittleNipper in post #31]

Did you ever actually prayed to GOD, and what was it you prayed for (if I might be so bold)?

I don't recall any specific events of praying that weren't the routine things that went on in church, before meals, etc. It wasn't something I recall doing to ask for something to happen (or not happen). I was apathetic for the most part about gods and religion even when I basically believed there was a god as much younger person, so unless it was some particular event related to religious activity (church, funerals, holidays like Christmas or Easter when the extended family focused on the religious aspect) I didn't think about it.

Not sure I see the point of the question. Why would praying to a particular god change anything for someone investigating whether that god, or any other one, might actually exist? If I prayed to a particular god and asked if he/she/it exists ... and to prove it to me in some way that was convincing to me personally ... what should I expect in response? If the prayer was heard, and this god wanted me to know that it does, in fact, exist, I'd think it would answer that prayer and provide the proof requested. But I'm pretty sure I already know what the result of that experiment would be.

[LittleNipper]

[Replying to LittleNipper in post #31]

Did you ever actually prayed to GOD, and what was it you prayed for (if I might be so bold)?

I don't recall any specific events of praying that weren't the routine things that went on in church, before meals, etc. It wasn't something I recall doing to ask for something to happen (or not happen). I was apathetic for the most part about gods and religion even when I basically believed there was a god as much younger person, so unless it was some particular event related to religious activity (church, funerals, holidays like Christmas or Easter when the extended family focused on the religious aspect) I didn't think about it.

Not sure I see the point of the question. Why would praying to a particular god change anything for someone investigating whether that god, or any other one, might actually exist? If I prayed to a particular god and asked if he/she/it exists ... and to prove it to me in some way that was convincing to me personally ... what should I expect in response? If the prayer was heard, and this god wanted me to know that it does, in fact, exist, I'd think it would answer that prayer and provide the proof requested. But I'm pretty sure I already know what the result of that experiment would be.

Well then, I'm not trying to insult your honesty, but you never were a Christian in that you never experienced a personal relationship with the SAVIOR. I am fully convinced had you done such, that you would have received answers from GOD as I have and others of the faith have. I've witnessed GOD working in my life and in the lives of others. Sometimes it is lifesaving. Other times it is a learning experience in trust. Sometimes it is the fulfillment of a special need. And on occasion GOD answers a simple request as a means to let one know that HE is indeed listening and in control. An experiment in seeking after GOD is free; however, the persisting in denial and rejecting even an honest trial is filled with dire eternal consequences. However, in any case you must be honest and sincere with GOD and not making a pretense. Mark 9:23-24
Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to LittleNipper in post #34]

Well then, I'm not trying to insult your honesty, but you never were a Christian in that you never experienced a personal relationship with the SAVIOR.

This (and the rest of the post) is the exact same pure preaching I heard in church as a young man. I don't argue with the point that I may not have been a "true" Christian when younger, but all attempts were made by my parents and community (school, etc.) to force that onto me and my siblings. It was presented as unarguable fact, not to be questioned. I realize a lot of people need religion and belief in gods for various reasons (eg. the comfort of believing in a higher power, the need to feel humans are special creations, that we're here for a purpose, as a crutch against life's problems, etc.). That's fine ... go for it.

The question I explored was whether any of it was actually true ... did god beings actually exist as real entities, did humans have afterlives, etc. I concluded that the answer was no and have never found any reason to change that position. It has only been reinforced as I got older. Beyond people's own brains convincing them that a particular god is real (and there are plenty of gods to go around), there is no convincing evidence for their existence (to me anyway), or any need for their existence. The threat of "going to hell" isn't a threat unless you believe such a place actually exists.

[LittleNipper]

[Replying to LittleNipper in post #34]

Well then, I'm not trying to insult your honesty, but you never were a Christian in that you never experienced a personal relationship with the SAVIOR.

This (and the rest of the post) is the exact same pure preaching I heard in church as a young man. I don't argue with the point that I may not have been a "true" Christian when younger, but all attempts were made by my parents and community (school, etc.) to force that onto me and my siblings. It was presented as unarguable fact, not to be questioned. I realize a lot of people need religion and belief in gods for various reasons (eg. the comfort of believing in a higher power, the need to feel humans are special creations, that we're here for a purpose, as a crutch against life's problems, etc.). That's fine ... go for it.

The question I explored was whether any of it was actually true ... did god beings actually exist as real entities, did humans have afterlives, etc. I concluded that the answer was no and have never found any reason to change that position. It has only been reinforced as I got older. Beyond people's own brains convincing them that a particular god is real (and there are plenty of gods to go around), there is no convincing evidence for their existence (to me anyway), or any need for their existence. The threat of "going to hell" isn't a threat unless you believe such a place actually exists.

Your belief that there is no GOD comes with terrible consequences. Even you must admit that if there is no GOD I lose nothing. If there is a GOD you lose everything. Now let me say this, everything I read per the Bible indicates to me that those that are saved have a future with GOD and the past things are forgotten -- the slate is clean... Those that are unsaved have nothing but regrets of opportunities missed with no future possibilities just reruns of a sorry part.

[Miles]

[Replying to LittleNipper in post #34]

Well then, I'm not trying to insult your honesty, but you never were a Christian in that you never experienced a personal relationship with the SAVIOR.

This (and the rest of the post) is the exact same pure preaching I heard in church as a young man. I don't argue with the point that I may not have been a "true" Christian when younger, but all attempts were made by my parents and community (school, etc.) to force that onto me and my siblings. It was presented as unarguable fact, not to be questioned. I realize a lot of people need religion and belief in gods for various reasons (eg. the comfort of believing in a higher power, the need to feel humans are special creations, that we're here for a purpose, as a crutch against life's problems, etc.). That's fine ... go for it.

The question I explored was whether any of it was actually true ... did god beings actually exist as real entities, did humans have afterlives, etc. I concluded that the answer was no and have never found any reason to change that position. It has only been reinforced as I got older. Beyond people's own brains convincing them that a particular god is real (and there are plenty of gods to go around), there is no convincing evidence for their existence (to me anyway), or any need for their existence. The threat of "going to hell" isn't a threat unless you believe such a place actually exists.

Your belief that there is no GOD comes with terrible consequences. Even you must admit that if there is no GOD I lose nothing. If there is a GOD you lose everything.

Ah ha, Pascals Wager enters the room. The only question now is, which god are you wagering your belief on, after all, Jehovah isn't the only guy in the game. In fact, the Greeks alone are said to have 176, the first twenty-five listed gods being:

1. Zeus
2. Apollo
3. Heracles
4. Poseidon
5. Hermes
6. Ares
7. Hephaestus
8. Hades
9. Chronos
10. Dionysus
11. Eros
12. Helios
13. Paean
14. Thanatos
15. Triton
16. Chaos
17. Notus
18. Pan
19. Erebus
20. Oceanus
21. Momus
22. Prometheus
23. Boreas
24. Morpheus
25. Hesperus

And this is just one of hundreds of cultures in the world that have gods.

Now let me say this, everything I read per the Bible indicates to me that those that are saved have a future with GOD and the past things are forgotten -- the slate is clean... Those that are unsaved have nothing but regrets of opportunities missed with no future possibilities just reruns of a sorry part.

And why are you paying attention to only what the Bible says when there are many other holy texts out there such as

Qur'an - Islam.
Gita - Hinduism.
Torah - Judaism.
Guru Granth Sahib - Sikhism.
Tripitaka - Buddhism.

What is it the Bible has to offer that, say, the Guru Granth Sahib, and Triptaka do not?


.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to LittleNipper in post #36]

Your belief that there is no GOD comes with terrible consequences. Even you must admit that if there is no GOD I lose nothing. If there is a GOD you lose everything. Now let me say this, everything I read per the Bible indicates to me that those that are saved have a future with GOD and the past things are forgotten -- the slate is clean... Those that are unsaved have nothing but regrets of opportunities missed with no future possibilities just reruns of a sorry part.

Pascals Wager as Miles pointed out. That has been debated here many times as you'd expect, and it has no relevance to someone who genuinely is convinced that gods do not exist. I don't have that belief on a coin toss or without a lot of thought on the subject long ago, but I am just as convinced that gods of any kind don't exist as you are convinced they do exist. And you, like all monotheists I've ever met, are further convinced that only the specific god you believe in is legitimate, correct? That is, you are an atheist when it comes to all gods except your favorite. I have no fear of "losing everything" for not believing in gods, as I also don't believe humans have afterlives so there is nothing risked on that front ... I'll die one day and my existence in the universe will be over at that point.

[brunumb]

Well then, I'm not trying to insult your honesty, but you never were a Christian in that you never experienced a personal relationship with the SAVIOR. I am fully convinced had you done such, that you would have received answers from GOD as I have and others of the faith have.

Perhaps all you have experienced is the result of confirmation bias. I believe that the answers you attribute to God simply came from within yourself. Whenever an experience could be associated with God, it added to your conviction. Anything disconfirming just never registered. Faith at work.

[LittleNipper]

[Replying to LittleNipper in post #34]

Well then, I'm not trying to insult your honesty, but you never were a Christian in that you never experienced a personal relationship with the SAVIOR.

This (and the rest of the post) is the exact same pure preaching I heard in church as a young man. I don't argue with the point that I may not have been a "true" Christian when younger, but all attempts were made by my parents and community (school, etc.) to force that onto me and my siblings. It was presented as unarguable fact, not to be questioned. I realize a lot of people need religion and belief in gods for various reasons (eg. the comfort of believing in a higher power, the need to feel humans are special creations, that we're here for a purpose, as a crutch against life's problems, etc.). That's fine ... go for it.

The question I explored was whether any of it was actually true ... did god beings actually exist as real entities, did humans have afterlives, etc. I concluded that the answer was no and have never found any reason to change that position. It has only been reinforced as I got older. Beyond people's own brains convincing them that a particular god is real (and there are plenty of gods to go around), there is no convincing evidence for their existence (to me anyway), or any need for their existence. The threat of "going to hell" isn't a threat unless you believe such a place actually exists.

Your belief that there is no GOD comes with terrible consequences. Even you must admit that if there is no GOD I lose nothing. If there is a GOD you lose everything.

Ah ha, Pascals Wager enters the room. The only question now is, which god are you wagering your belief on, after all, Jehovah isn't the only guy in the game. In fact, the Greeks alone are said to have 176, the first twenty-five listed gods being:

1. Zeus
2. Apollo
3. Heracles
4. Poseidon
5. Hermes
6. Ares
7. Hephaestus
8. Hades
9. Chronos
10. Dionysus
11. Eros
12. Helios
13. Paean
14. Thanatos
15. Triton
16. Chaos
17. Notus
18. Pan
19. Erebus
20. Oceanus
21. Momus
22. Prometheus
23. Boreas
24. Morpheus
25. Hesperus

And this is just one of hundreds of cultures in the world that have gods.

Now let me say this, everything I read per the Bible indicates to me that those that are saved have a future with GOD and the past things are forgotten -- the slate is clean... Those that are unsaved have nothing but regrets of opportunities missed with no future possibilities just reruns of a sorry part.

And why are you paying attention to only what the Bible says when there are many other holy texts out there such as

Qur'an - Islam.
Gita - Hinduism.
Torah - Judaism.
Guru Granth Sahib - Sikhism.
Tripitaka - Buddhism.

What is it the Bible has to offer that, say, the Guru Granth Sahib, and Triptaka do not?


.

Do your research and you will find NONE of the Greek and Roman gods were taught to be eternal nor did they create the Universe. As for Buddhism it is an agnostic belief at best and promotes being good, but can one always be perfect? Judaism is seeking a military leader but not a SAVIOR of the World --- who came, left, but promises to return! The first five books of the Bible are the Torah any additions the Jews have made is only trying to nullify what already exists there, so a means of man earning his salvation might be possible (however unpractical). The Qur'an and Islam tries to ride on the shirttails of what the BIBLE already says. Any religious belief that promotes being "good" to earn heaven misses the mark as only CHRIST is GOOD and neither you nor I nor anyone else has ever achieved HIS perfection.