The Exodus! Did it Really Happen?

[POI]

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

[1213]

How do you relate those two names? Exodus 2 says that the woman named him Moses, not Senmut. You really should read you Bible, not make stuff up.

Even if the woman gave the name Moses, Moses could have been called with other name by Egyptians. There are many similarities with Senmut and Moses, which is why it is possible they are the same person.

[POI]

...Such a claim would leave behind MOUNDS of evidence. ...

What and why?

Oh my... You didn't watch the video, did you? If you did, you certainly would not be asking such questions.

I suggest you watch it, and then tell me why you still believe the Exodus took place; besides the Bible's say-so alone.

[Eloi]

For Jesus Christ the exodus really happened:

John 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life.

Num. 21:4 As they continued their journey from Mount Hor by the way of the Red Sea in order to go around the land of Eʹdom, the people became weary of the journey. 5 And the people kept speaking against God and Moses, saying: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no food and no water, and we have come to hate this contemptible bread.” 6 So Jehovah sent poisonous serpents among the people, and they kept biting the people, so that many Israelites died.
7 So the people came to Moses and said: “We have sinned by speaking against Jehovah and against you. Intercede with Jehovah so that he may remove the serpents from us.” And Moses interceded on behalf of the people. 8 Then Jehovah said to Moses: “Make a replica of a poisonous snake and put it on a pole. Then when anyone has been bitten, he will have to look at it in order to keep alive.” 9 Moses at once made a serpent of copper and put it on the pole, and whenever a serpent had bitten a man and he looked at the copper serpent, he survived.

If someone claims to be a follower of Jesus Christ, shouldn't they believe the same as him?

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Eloi in post #43]

But that is just more reason to doubt the Jesus - story. Now one can either say he knew it wasn't true but used it as a teaching point for those who believed Noah and Moses, or he didn't know any better. Which either means he was only a man with human knowledge, or God kept knowledge from him unless he needed to know. Which explains a few things.

Or Of course it was all made up by humans who didn't know any better than the writers of Genesis and Exodus.

[Eloi]

[Replying to Eloi in post #43]

But that is just more reason to doubt the Jesus - story. Now one can either say he knew it wasn't true but used it as a teaching point for those who believed Noah and Moses, or he didn't know any better. Which either means he was only a man with human knowledge, or God kept knowledge from him unless he needed to know. Which explains a few things.

Or Of course it was all made up by humans who didn't know any better than the writers of Genesis and Exodus.

Ridiculous ... Under the same premise nothing would be taken as real... nor would you be a real person, just a machine with no feelings.

[Clownboat]

But that is just more reason to doubt the Jesus - story. Now one can either say he knew it wasn't true but used it as a teaching point for those who believed Noah and Moses, or he didn't know any better. Which either means he was only a man with human knowledge, or God kept knowledge from him unless he needed to know. Which explains a few things.

Or Of course it was all made up by humans who didn't know any better than the writers of Genesis and Exodus.

Ridiculous ...

Let's test your claim.

Under the same premise nothing would be taken as real...

What premise are you referring to and let's see if it actually leads to the conclusion that nothing would be taken as real.

nor would you be a real person, just a machine with no feelings.

Now this seems to be a jump that even Evil Knievel wouldn't have made!
How would you arrive at Transponder not being real or just a machine?

Perhaps you God can help you with a reply?

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Eloi in post #43]

But that is just more reason to doubt the Jesus - story. Now one can either say he knew it wasn't true but used it as a teaching point for those who believed Noah and Moses, or he didn't know any better. Which either means he was only a man with human knowledge, or God kept knowledge from him unless he needed to know. Which explains a few things.

Or Of course it was all made up by humans who didn't know any better than the writers of Genesis and Exodus.

Ridiculous ... Under the same premise nothing would be taken as real... nor would you be a real person, just a machine with no feelings.

That doesn't follow - or I don't follow you. Why do several explanatory options for why Jesus could have said what on evidence isn't true, including of course that maybe he never said it , have anything to do with whether anything (on evidence) is real or not or whether anyone is a real extant being? Explain yourself.

[TRANSPONDER]

But that is just more reason to doubt the Jesus - story. Now one can either say he knew it wasn't true but used it as a teaching point for those who believed Noah and Moses, or he didn't know any better. Which either means he was only a man with human knowledge, or God kept knowledge from him unless he needed to know. Which explains a few things.

Or Of course it was all made up by humans who didn't know any better than the writers of Genesis and Exodus.

Ridiculous ...

Let's test your claim.

Under the same premise nothing would be taken as real...

What premise are you referring to and let's see if it actually leads to the conclusion that nothing would be taken as real.

nor would you be a real person, just a machine with no feelings.

Now this seems to be a jump that even Evil Knievel wouldn't have made!
How would you arrive at Transponder not being real or just a machine?

Perhaps you God can help you with a reply?

Actually I suspect this is the 'Believe - or not' idea. We must believe without question that what Jesus supposedly said was what he said, it was of course true and he knew the facts and thus the legends he refers to must be true though all reason and evidence says they aren't.

If we don't believe the Bibleclaims, we can't believe anything including apparently our own existence. This is of course to disregard evidence, which is par for the theistical apologetic course.

[POI]

For Jesus Christ the exodus really happened:

John 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life.

Num. 21:4 As they continued their journey from Mount Hor by the way of the Red Sea in order to go around the land of Eʹdom, the people became weary of the journey. 5 And the people kept speaking against God and Moses, saying: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no food and no water, and we have come to hate this contemptible bread.” 6 So Jehovah sent poisonous serpents among the people, and they kept biting the people, so that many Israelites died.
7 So the people came to Moses and said: “We have sinned by speaking against Jehovah and against you. Intercede with Jehovah so that he may remove the serpents from us.” And Moses interceded on behalf of the people. 8 Then Jehovah said to Moses: “Make a replica of a poisonous snake and put it on a pole. Then when anyone has been bitten, he will have to look at it in order to keep alive.” 9 Moses at once made a serpent of copper and put it on the pole, and whenever a serpent had bitten a man and he looked at the copper serpent, he survived.

If someone claims to be a follower of Jesus Christ, shouldn't they believe the same as him?

I'm going to pose the same answer to you I posed to '1213', in post 39. Aside from the Bible's say-so, why do you believe the Exodus was a real event? The Exodus is a positive claim. The video in post 39 explains why this event is very unlikely to have happened.

[TRANSPONDER]

We already know. The Bible is true. Either factually, metaphorically or sorta like that (e.g the Flood was a more feasible Local one, with just a few local critters). Jesus saying he believed that is considered conformation, and questioning whether Jesus was in a position to know if he even said it is simply regarded as atheist denial of everything.

But atheist cumulative doubting and questioning of everything in the Bible means that we have to doubt it just as Christians doubt (or rather dismiss) every other Holy Book, and without even bothering to read them.

'Atheists disbelieve in just one more god than the Christians'. Or sometimes, Pascal's pancake - 'Christians dismiss all other gods and religion but theirs'. Because (of course) the Bible is credible. It sorta reads like history, but more and more it starts to read like legend. or at least mythological polemics.