"Slavery" in the Bible

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"Slavery" in the Bible

Post #1

Post by POI »

Allow us readers to be very careful. We must make sure we identify the proper context here, to assure against hasty and/or self-serving conclusions.

Exodus 21:2-3:

"2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him." <-- Okay, this seems clear enough, if you are a purchased Hebrew, with a wife, you are both to go free in year 7. :ok:

Exodus 21:4:

"4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free." <-- Here is where things start to look sketchy for the modern-day believer. If the slave is provided with a wife, and they have kids, the wife and kids are to stay with the slave master. They are not to go free.

Exodus 21:5-6:

"5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life." <-- More uncomfortability for the Christian here. Without getting into the weeds, common sense suggests a special rule is made to trick the male Hebrew into remaining a slave for life.

Leviticus 25:44-46:

"44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." <-- More awkwardness for the believer, as the Bible reader clammers to find a rationale to make this passage not read the way it does.

Here is a basic definition of chattel slavery --> "Chattel slavery is full slavery in its traditional form whereby slaves are the complete property of their master, can be bought and sold by him and treated in any way that he wishes, which may include torture and other brutality, excessively bad working conditions, and sexual exploitation"

Looks like all the ingredients fit the given Bible description here, minus the torture. Wait a minute, this is covered in the rest of Exodus 21. (i.e.):

"20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." <-- So basically, since the slave is your property, beatings with impunity are acceptable. Just don't kill them.

For debate:

By applying common sense, does/did the Bible ever, and/or currently still sanction chattel slavery?

Again, by using common sense, can a believer effectively use the Bible in support of breeding chattel slaves?

************************

Before you answer, consider this.... Since the NT does not mention the abolition of 'slavery', and yet the Bible makes further proclamation(s) and/or addendums (in favor of retaining 'slavery',) this means the Bible is not against chattel slavery either. Further, the Christian may want to introduce the importance of the 'golden rule'. However, the specifics outweigh the generals. The specifics of the rules for engagement of slavery are outside the 'golden rule'. Otherwise, the Bible would be a one-pager. 'Slavery' is an expressed exception to the general rule. Thus, anytime a specific scenario is not invoked, yes, 'golden rule.'
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

Post #91

Post by JoeyKnothead »

What I find most disturbing about this topic is that there's not a flood of theists coming in to condemn the practice of slavery - regardless of who, or what god might think about it.

The silence is scary.
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

Post #92

Post by Miles »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 8:02 pm What I find most disturbing about this topic is that there's not a flood of theists coming in to condemn the practice of slavery - regardless of who, or what god might think about it.

The silence is scary.
I think Christians believe it's safer not to contradict god than to be morally correct. Although, it reminds me of the consequences of such a practice.

James 4:17
17 So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Sinners!
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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

Post #93

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Miles wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 8:22 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 8:02 pm What I find most disturbing about this topic is that there's not a flood of theists coming in to condemn the practice of slavery - regardless of who, or what god might think about it.

The silence is scary.
I think Christians believe it's safer not to contradict god than to be morally correct. Although, it reminds me of the consequences of such a practice.

James 4:17
17 So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Sinners!
[-X naughty! naughty!


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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

Post #94

Post by TRANSPONDER »

I watched a phone in show the other day where an apologist was trying to claim that Jesus was anti -slavery. It was salutary to see the usual excuses being knocked down until we ended up in the usual place: bite the bullet - 'If it's ok with God, it's Ok with Me'. That's the scary part.

I suppose that Bible apologetics discussion pushes (though they resist) the believer either towards cafeteria Christianity or extremism. Either pick the bits of the Bible that fit in with modern day morality and ethics or reject that and go with Fundamentalism. Which is scarey, in so many ways, from science denial to a hankering for Theocracy (make no mistake, that what is on the ticket) with abrogation of human rights and book -burning along the way.

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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

Post #95

Post by tam »

Peace to you all,

Perhaps the reason some of us are not rushing to respond to this thread is because we have already done so on the other slavery thread created by POI?

In any case, here are my responses:

viewtopic.php?p=1078860#p1078860
viewtopic.php?p=1078893#p1078893
viewtopic.php?p=1079008#p1079008
viewtopic.php?p=1079034#p1079034
viewtopic.php?p=1079098#p1079098



Peace again.
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

Post #96

Post by TRANSPONDER »

tam wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 1:49 pm Peace to you all,

Perhaps the reason some of us are not rushing to respond to this thread is because we have already done so on the other slavery thread created by POI?

In any case, here are my responses:

viewtopic.php?p=1078860#p1078860
viewtopic.php?p=1078893#p1078893
viewtopic.php?p=1079008#p1079008
viewtopic.php?p=1079034#p1079034
viewtopic.php?p=1079098#p1079098



Peace again.
Or perhaps it for the reason I'm not posting and neither are the apologists; they know they have no case and I can see they are doing a great job without me. I had a look at two threads dealing with Claims/Evidence (morphing into resurrection - validation) and I was tempted topost, but there was nothing that I could add.

It doesn't matter if the same stuff comes up again and again (on my former Forum it could get you banned, going off topic) but here the discussions are more wide -ranging and the same debates are going to come up.

Cosmic origins,
Evolution
Genesis
Morality
Slavery
epistemology
Resurrection
Eschatology

Followed by
Prophecy
Revelation
NDEs
Jesus historicity
Bible reliability/Contradictions

Regular arguing - points that do the rounds and we see where they end up - faithbased denial,rejection of evidence and appeal to Faith, and you will know as much as any how much this appealsto personal revelation, which of course bring up the 'Which god?'apologetic. Others have other reverlations, other Interpretations, other Dogmas other god and religions, and it is the uttermost of failed claims to argue that the revelations that pop into any one head have to be the right ones.

It is why I take such an unholy glee in Christian apologists disagreeing over doctrine or Bible interpretation, like Jesusgod wouldn't be telling them all the same thing.

I'm not trying to rob you as Gandalf said, you can keepyour faith if you want, though as Frodo says to Gollum, "I think this food would do you good, if you could just try". But we understand that critical thinking, following the evidence, doubting and questioning (outside the box) isn't for everyone, especially those who operate on Faith.

It would be nice if they could "agree to disagree" while accepting that we goddless are operating on the evidence and they (the Believers) are operating essentially on Faith. But I just saw wehreit ends up, some trying to tangle upfaith/evidence not nothing means anything, denial of the fact of poor morality in the Bible (slavery being the killer here) and the appeal to personal revelation, which is a dead duck argument for the reasons I said and is no more that ultimate faith-based denial.

I don't say we atheists are perfec, but the inspiration is for truth (what comports with reality) rather than "Truth" (faith), as otherwise there's no point in debate. And we find the point in doing it is compelling.

As toyour reponses, they are excuses and evasions.Sorry.But the facts are there:

(1) God condones (even regulates) slavery in the OT.
(2) Jesus never says a word against slaver in the NT. Nor does Paul.

The 'play nice' exhortations really seem more addressed to Christian behavior within the group (derived, I argue from Paul, but that's another discussion) and generalised references to the Golden Rule or loving your neighbour do not excuse the abject failure of ruling against slavery. There are clear instructions to not divorce (which is arguable Bad Advice in the Bible) and to the woman not to do it again. The utter failure of Jesus while assiduously trashing all the Mosaic rules repeatedly never says 'Do not own slaves'.

Oh yes :P was it postedor in a vid?Someone argued that Jesus would have driven the people away if he's spoken out about slavery.

Apart from being a disgusting, snivelling, mealy -mouthed cowardly pitiful excuse of an apologetic, Jesus never minded alienating the entire Jewish race by tossing the Mosaic law in the bin, which is why they totally reject him today.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER on Tue May 09, 2023 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

Post #97

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 5:27 pm
tam wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 1:49 pm Peace to you all,

Perhaps the reason some of us are not rushing to respond to this thread is because we have already done so on the other slavery thread created by POI?

In any case, here are my responses:

viewtopic.php?p=1078860#p1078860
viewtopic.php?p=1078893#p1078893
viewtopic.php?p=1079008#p1079008
viewtopic.php?p=1079034#p1079034
viewtopic.php?p=1079098#p1079098



Peace again.
Or perhaps it for the reason I'm not posting
Lol... but you have been posting.

The links I posted address the rest of what you said, as well as the OP here, at least as pertains to me. I will leave those posts to stand, regardless of what others accept or not.

Peace still to you!
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- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

Post #98

Post by TRANSPONDER »

tam wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 5:36 pm Peace to you,
TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 5:27 pm
tam wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 1:49 pm Peace to you all,

Perhaps the reason some of us are not rushing to respond to this thread is because we have already done so on the other slavery thread created by POI?

In any case, here are my responses:

viewtopic.php?p=1078860#p1078860
viewtopic.php?p=1078893#p1078893
viewtopic.php?p=1079008#p1079008
viewtopic.php?p=1079034#p1079034
viewtopic.php?p=1079098#p1079098



Peace again.
Or perhaps it for the reason I'm not posting
Lol... but you have been posting.

The links I posted address the rest of what you said, as well as the OP here, at least as pertains to me. I will leave those posts to stand, regardless of what others accept or not.

Peace still to you!
:D Good one. I am, aren't I?. But laughs aside, you haven't made any counter other than claim you have answered these points already. but my post went on to refute them, really. You can't claim you already answered with refuted posts and appeal to personal enlightenment from God forever. You can say 'I don't care what anyone thinks', but that is no basis for continuing to post.

p.s I had a look at all the links and it's all so evasive, not just one poster but others, like 'confusing slavery with slavery to Christ'. Who is doing that other than Christian apologists trying to evade the matter? Chattel slavery is what it is and God never, ever speaks out about it. Neither does Jesus. The claims that be nice to everyone somehow covers that, fails.It did fail. It was rather the enlightenment that started the end to slavery and it took longer in the Bible belt than anywhere else in the west, even Russia.

Peace, as always.

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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

Post #99

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 5:43 pm
tam wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 5:36 pm Peace to you,
TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 5:27 pm
tam wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 1:49 pm Peace to you all,

Perhaps the reason some of us are not rushing to respond to this thread is because we have already done so on the other slavery thread created by POI?

In any case, here are my responses:

viewtopic.php?p=1078860#p1078860
viewtopic.php?p=1078893#p1078893
viewtopic.php?p=1079008#p1079008
viewtopic.php?p=1079034#p1079034
viewtopic.php?p=1079098#p1079098



Peace again.
Or perhaps it for the reason I'm not posting
Lol... but you have been posting.

The links I posted address the rest of what you said, as well as the OP here, at least as pertains to me. I will leave those posts to stand, regardless of what others accept or not.

Peace still to you!
:D Good one. I am, aren't I?. But laughs aside, you haven't made any counter other than claim you have answered these points already.
I get that you may not accept what I wrote, but I do not think I have anything to add that has not already been said. If you want me to address something specific that you think was not addressed in those posts (something that has to do with the topic of slavery in the bible), then I am going to need you to point it out.

The claims that be nice to everyone somehow covers that, fails.
I never made that claim and I believe I addressed this in that thread as well (I did not link to every single post of mine though - the thread does go on for 43 pages).
It did fail. It was rather the enlightenment that started the end to slavery and it took longer in the Bible belt than anywhere else in the west, even Russia.
Just because people fail to listen does not mean Christ failed to teach.
Peace, as always.

Peace to you as well (and thank you!)


Edited to add (this is where our discussion began on that thread):

viewtopic.php?p=1079520#p1079520
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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Re: "Slavery" in the Bible

Post #100

Post by TRANSPONDER »

tam wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 6:09 pm Peace to you,
TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 5:43 pm
tam wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 5:36 pm Peace to you,
TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 5:27 pm
tam wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 1:49 pm Peace to you all,

Perhaps the reason some of us are not rushing to respond to this thread is because we have already done so on the other slavery thread created by POI?

In any case, here are my responses:

viewtopic.php?p=1078860#p1078860
viewtopic.php?p=1078893#p1078893
viewtopic.php?p=1079008#p1079008
viewtopic.php?p=1079034#p1079034
viewtopic.php?p=1079098#p1079098



Peace again.
Or perhaps it for the reason I'm not posting
Lol... but you have been posting.

The links I posted address the rest of what you said, as well as the OP here, at least as pertains to me. I will leave those posts to stand, regardless of what others accept or not.

Peace still to you!
:D Good one. I am, aren't I?. But laughs aside, you haven't made any counter other than claim you have answered these points already.
I get that you may not accept what I wrote, but I do not think I have anything to add that has not already been said. If you want me to address something specific that you think was not addressed in those posts (something that has to do with the topic of slavery in the bible), then I am going to need you to point it out.


I would be astonished if you or any other slavery - excuser for Jesus had anything much to add to the usual denial and excuses. I have picked up and exposed, frankly, one supposed previous point addressed. It failed there and here. This is why the ploy of appealing to further 'points addressed' when they failed is mere evasion.
The claims that be nice to everyone somehow covers that, fails.
I never made that claim and I believe I addressed this in that thread as well (I did not link to every single post of mine though - the thread does go on for 43 pages).
I didn't need to go on from even the first page "Play Nice" [The 'golden rule' that He emphasized leaves no room for one person to enslave another person against their will ] You won't further damage you case by pulling the "I did not use those words" evasive tactic. This is saying that the overall NT 'Be nice' command or exhortation somehow covers all the specific omissions like addressing chattel slavery while fussing about not bothering with the Sabbath observance and pouring spite on the Pharisees, Sadducees and in fact, all the Jews. Like a perfect little Paulinist.
It did fail. It was rather the enlightenment that started the end to slavery and it took longer in the Bible belt than anywhere else in the west, even Russia.
Just because people fail to listen does not mean Christ failed to teach.
Not only Jesus has that problem. But the point is that, if he was going to teach at all, he should surely address the immorality of slavery rather than obsessing about demolishing the Jewish rites and customs,like a perfect street - cleaner for Pauline Christianity.
Peace, as always.

Peace to you as well (and thank you!)


Edited to add (this is where our discussion began on that thread):

viewtopic.php?p=1079520#p1079520
Yep. Whatsoever, and I do feel a bit of a Heel :) for dwelling on Slavery - but it is a killer for the Bible. Just as the Nativity is a killer for the various efforts to reconcile contradictions. Tyre is a killer for 'Prophecy' and I reckon 'Babes and sucklings (1) is a killer for Matthew as eyewitness (on top of the Virgin and the two donkeys and save the jokes, folks).

Heaps of peace and I don't wish to be harsh o' the tongue, especially with such a nice person, but Debate is what it is, and there's no point not sending the troops in when you see the barriers go down.


(1) My Baby, O:) I am so proud.

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