Is knowing the "Origin of the Universe" Important

[Zzyzx]

Is knowing the "Origin of the Universe" Important in Life?

In many of these threads there is hot debate about the origin of the universe. Here are a few comments regarding the topic:

1. No one involved in the debates here seems to possess knowledge of advanced physics, mathematics, chemistry, astronomy, etc. Many ardent debaters seem to be non-scientific or anti-scientific in orientation, yet seem to claim or imply understanding of the topic.

2. Knowledge of the origin of the universe may be “nice to know” but it is not important in living a successful, satisfying, productive life in modern society by one’s own standards. Knowledge of medicine, mechanics, electronics, meteorology, seismology, etc has application to real life. Origin of the universe does not.

3. The primary motivation do discuss the origin of the universe seems to be to defend the claim that gods, or one god in particular, created the universe. Otherwise discussion would likely involve primarily scientists exploring the limits of human knowledge and understanding – not laymen attempting to defend an emotional position.

4. Time spent pondering or arguing the origin of the universe might be more productively devoted to other topics – perhaps some with a possibility of positive outcome.

Excluding religious motivations, of what compelling interest is knowledge of the origin of the universe to you personally?

[Fisherking]

Is knowing the "Origin of the Universe" Important in Life?

Were discoveries in "advanced physics, mathematics, chemistry, astronomy,""medicine, mechanics, electronics, meteorology, seismology, etc" important to life? People ask questions and try to answer them, many become "important to life." afterwards.

1. No one involved in the debates here seems to possess knowledge of advanced physics, mathematics, chemistry, astronomy, etc. Many ardent debaters seem to be non-scientific or anti-scientific in orientation, yet seem to claim or imply understanding of the topic.

Some possess the knowledge and some don't. Let the arguments speak for themselves regardless who is giving them.

2. Knowledge of the origin of the universe may be “nice to know” but it is not important in living a successful, satisfying, productive life in modern society by one’s own standards. Knowledge of medicine, mechanics, electronics, meteorology, seismology, etc has application to real life. Origin of the universe does not.

How would you know?

3. The primary motivation do discuss the origin of the universe seems to be to defend the claim that gods, or one god in particular, created the universe.

So, since origin of universe discussions "seems to defend the claim that gods, or one god in particular, created the universe", we should just do away with these types of arguments? I'm not trying to build a strawman so please correct me if I am misrepresenting what you are saying.

4. Time spent pondering or arguing the origin of the universe might be more productively devoted to other topics – perhaps some with a possibility of positive outcome.

Perhaps arguing over the origin of the universe is productive and may produce a positive outcome, who knows?

Excluding religious motivations, of what compelling interest is knowledge of the origin of the universe to you personally?

If I was not a believer I would still want to know the answer to the question. Answering the question would be compelling enough for me.

[Zzyzx]

Replies in blue

Is knowing the "Origin of the Universe" Important in Life?

Were discoveries in "advanced physics, mathematics, chemistry, astronomy,""medicine, mechanics, electronics, meteorology, seismology, etc" important to life?

Yes, discoveries in basic science and some in theoretical science WERE important to life when they led to advances in medicine, transportation, agriculture, etc. Those advances affected the real world inhabited by people – not an imaginary existence inhabited by imaginary super beings.

Debating the origin of the universe does not, IMO, affect real life in the real world; even if it was possible to determine the exact mechanism of origin. One potential benefit I foresee to such knowledge is that it would further discredit superstition and supernaturalism.

1. No one involved in the debates here seems to possess knowledge of advanced physics, mathematics, chemistry, astronomy, etc. Many ardent debaters seem to be non-scientific or anti-scientific in orientation, yet seem to claim or imply understanding of the topic.

Some possess the knowledge and some don't. Let the arguments speak for themselves regardless who is giving them.

The arguments do speak for themselves and reveal that there is no evidence of the knowledge in question. There is only CLAIM of knowledge on the part of religionists and that is based in religion rather than reality.

2. Knowledge of the origin of the universe may be “nice to know” but it is not important in living a successful, satisfying, productive life in modern society by one’s own standards. Knowledge of medicine, mechanics, electronics, meteorology, seismology, etc has application to real life. Origin of the universe does not.

How would you know?

Millions of humans living “successful, satisfying, productive lives in modern society” do so without knowing the origin of the universe. The lack of such knowledge does not destroy their lives; the promise of such knowledge cannot be demonstrated to offer improvement in their lives.

Religionists seem obsessed with the origin of the universe because their dogma claims to represent the originator and to have communication from and/or with the supposed “creator”. It is unfortunate that religion is saddled with that early boast and is in a position of having to defend such a silly position.

3. The primary motivation do discuss the origin of the universe seems to be to defend the claim that gods, or one god in particular, created the universe.

So, since origin of universe discussions "seems to defend the claim that gods, or one god in particular, created the universe", we should just do away with these types of arguments? I'm not trying to build a strawman so please correct me if I am misrepresenting what you are saying.

The fervency with which people discuss the creation of the universe with no knowledge other than dogma has some entertainment value for those who watch with amusement. It would seem as though there are other topics that would be more worthy of attention. However, I am not anointed by god to monitor discussions.

4. Time spent pondering or arguing the origin of the universe might be more productively devoted to other topics – perhaps some with a possibility of positive outcome.

Perhaps arguing over the origin of the universe is productive and may produce a positive outcome, who knows?

Yes, and debating how many angels can dance on the head (or point) of a pin MAY produce positive outcome. Neither seem worthy of the effort.

Excluding religious motivations, of what compelling interest is knowledge of the origin of the universe to you personally?

If I was not a believer I would still want to know the answer to the question. Answering the question would be compelling enough for me.

Have you found the question compelling enough to actually study the advanced sciences that have some prospect of providing real answers?

If not, it qualifies as a curiosity rather than a compelling interest

[Fisherking]

Is knowing the "Origin of the Universe" Important in Life

Yes, discoveries in basic science and some in theoretical science WERE important to life when they led to advances in medicine, transportation, agriculture, etc. Those advances affected the real world inhabited by people – not an imaginary existence inhabited by imaginary super beings.

How do you know discoveries in origin's of the universe will not become important? Who is to say these discoveries will not affect the real world?
Zzyzx wrote: "not an imaginary existence inhabited by imaginary super beings". I thought the question was the importance of knowing the origins of the universe, not the existence of super beings.

Debating the origin of the universe does not, IMO, affect real life in the real world

It seems to me that
1. you are a real life
2. you live in the real world
If both of the above are true then debating the origin of the universe does not affect you. If it does not affect you I wonder why you are involved in any debate about origins If it does not affect the real you in the real world why does it matter to you whether the debate continues or not?

The arguments do speak for themselves and reveal that there is no evidence of the knowledge in question. There is only CLAIM of knowledge on the part of religionists and that is based in religion rather than reality.

You are claiming to have knowledge that "religionists" knowledge is "based in religion rather than reality".
This is why there is debate, it could just as easily be written this way: There is only CLAIM of knowledge on the part of [atheists] and that is based in [atheism] rather than reality.

Millions of humans living “successful, satisfying, productive lives in modern society” do so without knowing the origin of the universe. The lack of such knowledge does not destroy their lives; the promise of such knowledge cannot be demonstrated to offer improvement in their lives.

Millions of humans living “successful, satisfying, productive lives in modern society” do so knowing the origin of the universe. Such knowledge does not destroy their lives; many claim it enhances their lives.

Have you found the question compelling enough to actually study the advanced sciences that have some prospect of providing real answers?

Yes

[Cathar1950]

It seems importaant to me because it help understand how it works.
Learning about some atomic particle could help us build a time machine and then everyone gets one and we see how much more we can do by changing things.

Someday we may have to fire up a star so some dead planet can be teraformed.

Maybe we will find some way to use power from a black hole to hang picture on our walls.

[Zzyzx]

Replies in Blue

Is knowing the "Origin of the Universe" Important in Life

Yes, discoveries in basic science and some in theoretical science WERE important to life when they led to advances in medicine, transportation, agriculture, etc. Those advances affected the real world inhabited by people – not an imaginary existence inhabited by imaginary super beings.

How do you know discoveries in origin's of the universe will not become important? Who is to say these discoveries will not affect the real world?

I have NOT stated that discoveries in origin of the universe will not become important. Kindly do not attempt to credit me with words you inject.

I have said that it is possible that such information will be useful to mankind – with about the same likelihood, IMO, as the value of knowing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin (another topic that seems to have been of great interest to religionists).

Zzyzx wrote: "not an imaginary existence inhabited by imaginary super beings". I thought the question was the importance of knowing the origins of the universe, not the existence of super beings.

Can religionists discuss the origin of the universe without discussing invisible super-beings? I do not recall ever encountering a religionist discussion of the origin of the universe that did not include mention of “creators” or “gods”, which seem to qualify as invisible (and imaginary IMO) super-beings.

If you would like to conduct such a discussion, I would find that most interesting. Please proceed.

Debating the origin of the universe does not, IMO, affect real life in the real world

It seems to me that
1. you are a real life
2. you live in the real world
If both of the above are true then debating the origin of the universe does not affect you. If it does not affect you I wonder why you are involved in any debate about origins If it does not affect the real you in the real world why does it matter to you whether the debate continues or not?

I participate in these discussions / debates to provide intelligent readers with glaring contract to religionists’ false claims and pronouncements, unprovable promises and threats, and emotional arguments.

This is an excellent venue to help demonstrate the shortcomings, limitations and defects of religious thinking. It takes little effort to raise issues that cannot be addressed rationally and reasonably from the emotion / faith / belief position.

The arguments do speak for themselves and reveal that there is no evidence of the knowledge in question. There is only CLAIM of knowledge on the part of religionists and that is based in religion rather than reality.

You are claiming to have knowledge that "religionists" knowledge is "based in religion rather than reality".
This is why there is debate, it could just as easily be written this way: There is only CLAIM of knowledge on the part of [atheists] and that is based in [atheism] rather than reality.

An astute person reading what you quoted recognizes that I carefully state that “arguments speak for themselves” and “there is only claim of knowledge on the part of religionists”.

Exactly what knowledge do you say I claim that is based in atheism?

Do you KNOW my position regarding Agnosticism, Atheism or Anti-Christianity, other than it is basically non-religious? Or, are you assuming that you know without looking for evidence or going to the source to learn the truth? If asked I would be willing to specify exactly so no one would need to assume that they know what they do not know, but only surmise, guess, assume, etc.

Millions of humans living “successful, satisfying, productive lives in modern society” do so without knowing the origin of the universe. The lack of such knowledge does not destroy their lives; the promise of such knowledge cannot be demonstrated to offer improvement in their lives.

Millions of humans living “successful, satisfying, productive lives in modern society” do so knowing the origin of the universe. Such knowledge does not destroy their lives; many claim it enhances their lives.

I challenge the statement that “humans living in modern society” KNOW the origin of the universe – you included. You think you know because you read a book and heard people talk – but that is FAR different than knowing.

Please cite independent, impartial, verifiable evidence that you or anyone knows the origin of the universe.

Have you found the question compelling enough to actually study the advanced sciences that have some prospect of providing real answers?

Yes

Would you care to give a synopsis of your studies? Most scholars are willing and able to do so.

[otseng]

Is knowing the "Origin of the Universe" Important in Life?

In the fact that it could have important metaphysical implications, yes, it is.

1. No one involved in the debates here seems to possess knowledge of advanced physics, mathematics, chemistry, astronomy, etc. Many ardent debaters seem to be non-scientific or anti-scientific in orientation, yet seem to claim or imply understanding of the topic.

I don't think anyone claims to be an expert in any of the fields you mentioned (though we do have some professors here). But it's not a requirement to have an advanced degree in a subject to debate about it.

2. Knowledge of the origin of the universe may be “nice to know” but it is not important in living a successful, satisfying, productive life in modern society by one’s own standards. Knowledge of medicine, mechanics, electronics, meteorology, seismology, etc has application to real life. Origin of the universe does not.

However, the main purpose of the forum is not to discuss how to apply knowledge in a practical way, but simply to debate all things related to Christianity and religion.

3. The primary motivation do discuss the origin of the universe seems to be to defend the claim that gods, or one god in particular, created the universe.

Of course. Arguing for the existence of God would be a fundamental issue on this forum. If God does not exist, then there's not much use even to debate about the Bible or theology.

4. Time spent pondering or arguing the origin of the universe might be more productively devoted to other topics – perhaps some with a possibility of positive outcome.

We do have the subforum Putting Our Heads Together to attempt to work together to solve global issues.

Excluding religious motivations, of what compelling interest is knowledge of the origin of the universe to you personally?

If there was not any religious motivations, it wouldn't be really relevant to debate here on this forum.

[otseng]

Replies in Blue

Instead of using color to highlight your reply, I'd suggest to use the standard quoting feature to reply to others.

Here is a tutorial on how to use it: Quick BBCode Tutorial

[Chad]

I care about the answer to the origin of the Universe because I care about what's true. If a supernatural entity was at the root of it all, I would like to know I suppose. Likewise, if the evidence points away, or not directly towards a god at all, then I would like to know as well. As far as modern social implications go, it probably isn't that important. However, I'm sure some physicists/cosmologists would disagree.

[twobitsmedia]

A lot of argument and debate end up going back to creation because the question of the existence of God often vailidates whether someone wants to be live the Bible or not. Naturally, if God doesn't exist, then the Bible has no meaning. And if you took the first few chapters out of the Bible there would be nothing to hinge the rest on. I tend to agree that it doesnt make any big deal sometimes about knowing it because it doesn't seem that it will affect the way things are right now. God didn't seem to think it was a big deal as He made no effort to explain anything before "In the beginning God created the heavens and earth....." If it was impactfully important I would think he might have included a preface. In fact, I think the Bible is more concerned about the future than it is the past, or more concerned about where we are going than where we have been. The necessity of "faith" relies on "hopeful evidence of things not seen" rather than hopeful evidence of the past. But, if you think of it in terms of time, 250,000 years from now, if we are even thinking about this time on earth it will seem so very trite.