Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

[John Human]

When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.

On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.

Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?

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[Clownboat]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #469]

Let's see if that holds true. Suppose demons can influence the brain of humans. Let's say they can sometimes cause hallucinations and control what we see via those hallucinations. What would the scientist find? At best, if he happened to have the person in an MRI or hooked up to an EEG, he would see evidence that the person saw something that is not visible to others or heard something that is not visible to others.

How would the scientists using the scientific method determine if a demon were the cause of the person hearing something that no one else is hearing or if somehow the brain just goes super wonky sometimes and people hear things?

And suppose the doctor prescribes the person medication and the voices aren't so bad or they even go away. It could be that case that the medicine alters the brain in such a way that the demon can no longer manipulate it in the same way. Afterall, demons are not gods.

What is the point of all this obfuscation?
When things, even undetectable things (dark matter, black holes) interact with our world, we are able to detect these interactions.

Your examples above fail because they would be examples of a demon affecting the mind of a person. I submit that demons do not interact with our world, or else we would be able to detect such interactions. It is very telling that you had to go to the mind of a person in your attempt to justify demons being real. It is only in the minds of humans that we find a flat earth, demons and gods.

[Diagoras]

How would science play any role in judging if metaphysical things like demons exist or not?

Scientific practices have proven uniquely powerful over the years in revealing the underlying structure, materials and laws of the world we live in. Its ability to do this without recourse to supernatural explanations is a strong indicator that we do not need to turn to those things for answers.

Could you explain how the scientific method can know anything about if the metaphysical is real or unreal?

Simple. Observe any ‘supernatural’ phenomenon, perform some experiments on it, and build a theory to explain its cause and/or mechanism. Repeat as necessary. For those phenomena that can be adequately and reliably explained by natural means, the conclusion will likely be that the supernatural was unreal.

I would agree that without personal experiences with demons it wouldn't make much sense to believe in them.

Well, she turned me into a newt! (I got better…)

However, it would not be a scientific position.

Yes it would. At a very basic level, you’d be simply keeping an open mind in the absence of evidence. I do it all the time.

It would be like me disbelieving in vampires because I don't see reasons to believe in them.

<bolding mine>

You’re keeping an open mind, in the absence of seen evidence. You are in fact acting like a rational scientist would when questioning the existence of vampires.

And by experiences, I mean experiences that make more sense under the belief in demons.

<bolding mine>

Ok, you’re suggesting that someone (you?) could have experienced something that they strongly believed was a demon. I’ll offer an alternative explanation:

That person suffered a brief, psychotic episode: manifesting as hallucination coupled with delusions.

To anyone who suffered such an episode (or who had a close friend or family member go through it), I can absolutely acknowledge that it would feel real and terribly upsetting. However, the explanation that makes more sense than ‘demons’ would be simply a small ‘imbalance’ in the brain (chemical or electrical) that in most cases can be effectively treated by a trained medical doctor.

Here’s a link: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/248159#causes

[brunumb]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #469]

Let's see if that holds true. Suppose demons can influence the brain of humans. Let's say they can sometimes cause hallucinations and control what we see via those hallucinations. What would the scientist find? At best, if he happened to have the person in an MRI or hooked up to an EEG, he would see evidence that the person saw something that is not visible to others or heard something that is not visible to others.

How would the scientists using the scientific method determine if a demon were the cause of the person hearing something that no one else is hearing or if somehow the brain just goes super wonky sometimes and people hear things?

And suppose the doctor prescribes the person medication and the voices aren't so bad or they even go away. It could be that case that the medicine alters the brain in such a way that the demon can no longer manipulate it in the same way. Afterall, demons are not gods.

How does one distinguish between hallucinations and mental issues caused by demon activity as distinct from other physiological factors?

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #469]

Let's see if that holds true. Suppose demons can influence the brain of humans. Let's say they can sometimes cause hallucinations and control what we see via those hallucinations. What would the scientist find? At best, if he happened to have the person in an MRI or hooked up to an EEG, he would see evidence that the person saw something that is not visible to others or heard something that is not visible to others.

How would the scientists using the scientific method determine if a demon were the cause of the person hearing something that no one else is hearing or if somehow the brain just goes super wonky sometimes and people hear things?

And suppose the doctor prescribes the person medication and the voices aren't so bad or they even go away. It could be that case that the medicine alters the brain in such a way that the demon can no longer manipulate it in the same way. Afterall, demons are not gods.

How does one distinguish between hallucinations and mental issues caused by demon activity as distinct from other physiological factors?

That is precisely what I am asking you. Using the scientific method, how does one rule our demon-caused hallucination?

The answer is, they cannot. Science cannot offer us anything that is for or against metaphysical things like demons.

It could be that every single case of hallucinations is caused by demons, that every schizophrenic is oppressed or possessed by demons.

This is the weakness of science.

[brunumb]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #469]

Let's see if that holds true. Suppose demons can influence the brain of humans. Let's say they can sometimes cause hallucinations and control what we see via those hallucinations. What would the scientist find? At best, if he happened to have the person in an MRI or hooked up to an EEG, he would see evidence that the person saw something that is not visible to others or heard something that is not visible to others.

How would the scientists using the scientific method determine if a demon were the cause of the person hearing something that no one else is hearing or if somehow the brain just goes super wonky sometimes and people hear things?

And suppose the doctor prescribes the person medication and the voices aren't so bad or they even go away. It could be that case that the medicine alters the brain in such a way that the demon can no longer manipulate it in the same way. Afterall, demons are not gods.

How does one distinguish between hallucinations and mental issues caused by demon activity as distinct from other physiological factors?

That is precisely what I am asking you. Using the scientific method, how does one rule our demon-caused hallucination?

The answer is, they cannot. Science cannot offer us anything that is for or against metaphysical things like demons.

It could be that every single case of hallucinations is caused by demons, that every schizophrenic is oppressed or possessed by demons.

This is the weakness of science.

In other words, you have no way of demonstrating that demons do anything. One of the great advantages of referring to the supernatural realm is that you can claim it is there but never verify it. As far as I am concerned demons are just products of the imagination.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #469]

Let's see if that holds true. Suppose demons can influence the brain of humans. Let's say they can sometimes cause hallucinations and control what we see via those hallucinations. What would the scientist find? At best, if he happened to have the person in an MRI or hooked up to an EEG, he would see evidence that the person saw something that is not visible to others or heard something that is not visible to others.

How would the scientists using the scientific method determine if a demon were the cause of the person hearing something that no one else is hearing or if somehow the brain just goes super wonky sometimes and people hear things?

And suppose the doctor prescribes the person medication and the voices aren't so bad or they even go away. It could be that case that the medicine alters the brain in such a way that the demon can no longer manipulate it in the same way. Afterall, demons are not gods.

How does one distinguish between hallucinations and mental issues caused by demon activity as distinct from other physiological factors?

That is precisely what I am asking you. Using the scientific method, how does one rule our demon-caused hallucination?

The answer is, they cannot. Science cannot offer us anything that is for or against metaphysical things like demons.

It could be that every single case of hallucinations is caused by demons, that every schizophrenic is oppressed or possessed by demons.

This is the weakness of science.

In other words, you have no way of demonstrating that demons do anything. One of the great advantages of referring to the supernatural realm is that you can claim it is there but never verify it. As far as I am concerned demons are just products of the imagination.

Catholic exorcists have a process that they must go through, where they rule out every other possible cause, and only when they have done this can they perform an exorcism. They must rule out insanity by having the person see a psychiatrist. They must rule out physical illnesses like brain tumors, etc.

[brunumb]

Catholic exorcists have a process that they must go through, where they rule out every other possible cause, and only when they have done this can they perform an exorcism. They must rule out insanity by having the person see a psychiatrist. They must rule out physical illnesses like brain tumors, etc.

To be honest, I wouldn't trust a Catholic exorcist, or any other, as far as I could throw one.

[Clownboat]

Catholic exorcists have a process that they must go through, where they rule out every other possible cause, and only when they have done this can they perform an exorcism. They must rule out insanity by having the person see a psychiatrist. They must rule out physical illnesses like brain tumors, etc.

To be honest, I wouldn't trust a Catholic exorcist, or any other, as far as I could throw one.

Why, because of things like this?
1975-1976 — Anneliese Michel was a woman from Germany who underwent 67 exorcisms, which inspired the films The Exorcism of Emily Rose and Requiem. In a conference several years later, German bishops retracted the claim that she was possessed.

67 times demons were falsely attributed as the cause. This is the danger of pointing to the supernatural or anything that is unfalsifiable.

[William]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #478]

If someone hears an external but invisible voice, is it real or imagined?

What determines real for imaginary has to do with what can be measured. External invisible voices can only be determined real according to the one hearing, and what is heard, is data which can be measured and if the data aligns with the other measurable aspects of reality, then the voice [or the voices as the case might be] can be deemed to being real.

This would have to apply to all invisible voices, be they 'gods' or 'devils'...

To all appearances, Eleanor Longden was just like every other student, heading to college full of promise and without a care in the world. That was until the voices in her head started talking. Initially innocuous, these internal narrators became increasingly antagonistic and dictatorial, turning her life into a living nightmare. Diagnosed with schizophrenia, hospitalized, drugged, Longden was discarded by a system that didn't know how to help her. Longden tells the moving tale of her years-long journey back to mental health, and makes the case that it was through learning to listen to her voices that she was able to survive.

[brunumb]

If someone hears an external but invisible voice, is it real or imagined?

In her old age, my mother would sometimes call to me in the night asking me to do something about a little boy who was crying, or similar. There was never anyone making any such sound and in the middle of the night it was always particularly quiet. These aural hallucinations are associated with a form of dementia. Thankfully she never developed it any further than that. The brain is an amazing organ.