Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Jose Fly
Guru
Posts: 1576
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Location: Out west somewhere
Has thanked: 352 times
Been thanked: 1054 times

Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #1

Post by Jose Fly »

In another thread I expressed that I don't really understand many of the behaviors I frequently see from creationists. One of those behaviors is how they seem to not only think themselves experts in a wide variety of scientific fields, they seem to believe that their knowledge and expertise is superior to the actual professionals in those fields. Thus, we often see them attempt to debate against the work of professionals by mere assertion (IOW, "because I say so").

In that earlier thread, several folks (correctly) noted that such behavior can be explained by the Dunning-Kruger Effect. While I agree that it explains what they're doing, it still doesn't really explain why they do it or how they are seemingly oblivious to it.

The other day I came across this article....

Overconfidence and Opposition to Scientific Consensus
The recent study – Knowledge overconfidence is associated with anti-consensus views on controversial scientific issues, by Nicholas Light et al, is not surprising but is reassuringly solid in its outcome. The researchers compared peoples objective knowledge about various controversial topics (their knowledge of objective facts), with their subjective knowledge (assessment of their own knowledge) and opposition to consensus views. They found a robust effect in which opposition increased as the gap between objective and subjective knowledge increased (see graphs above the fold).

This may remind you of Dunning Kruger – the less people know the more they overestimate their knowledge (although subjective knowledge still decreases, just not as fast as objective knowledge). This is more of a super DK, those who know the least think they know the most. This has been found previously with specific topics – safety of GM food, genetic manipulation, and vaccines and autism. In addition to the super DK effect, this study shows that is correlates well with opposition to scientific consensus.

This study does not fully establish what causes such opposition, just correlates it with a dramatic lack of humility, lack of knowledge, and overestimation of one’s knowledge. There are studies and speculation trying to discern the ultimate causes of this pattern, and they are likely different for different issues. The classic explanation is the knowledge deficit model, that this pattern emerges as a result of lack of objective knowledge. But his model is mostly not true for most topics, although knowledge is still important and can even be dominant with some issues, like GM food. There is also the “cultural cognition” model, which posits that people hold beliefs in line with their culture (including political, social, and religious subcultures). This also is highly relevant for some issues more than others, like rejection of evolutionary science.

Other factors that have been implicated include cognitive style, with intuitive thinkers being more likely to fall into this opposition pattern than analytical thinkers. Intuitive thinking also correlates with another variable, conspiracy thinking, that also correlates with the rejection of consensus. Conspiracy thinking seems to occur in two flavors. There is opportunistic conspiracy thinking in which it seems to be not the driver of the false belief but a reinforcer. But there are also dedicated conspiracy theorists, who will accept any conspiracy, for which conspiracy thinking appears to be the driver.
So to put this in context of my question (why do some exhibit the D-K Effect), the research described in this article indicates that it's due to a combination of factors: lack of humility, one's cultural environment, intuitive-type thinking, conspiracy thinking

The topic for debate: Do you agree with that? Do you see this "super D-K" applying to some of the discussions/debates in this forum? Do you think there are other factors the researchers may have missed?

For me, these explanations line up quite well with the behaviors I commonly notice among creationists, most notably the lack of humility. IMO, that explains why creationists are so prone to argue via empty assertion. They think so highly of themselves, they figure "because I say so" is a valid form of argumentation and don't seem to really understand why the rest of us don't.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

User avatar
Jose Fly
Guru
Posts: 1576
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Location: Out west somewhere
Has thanked: 352 times
Been thanked: 1054 times

Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #31

Post by Jose Fly »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:55 pm The scientific community knows about him quite well. He is a veteran in the game.
And up to this point, he's had zero impact on how science is done. So unless he has something new, he's no different than a flat-earther....100% irrelevant to science.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

User avatar
We_Are_VENOM
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1632
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:33 am
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #32

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Jose Fly wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:29 pm And up to this point, he's had zero impact on how science is done.
He has impacted those who've opened themselves up to be impacted, in a positive way, myself included.
So unless he has something new, he's no different than a flat-earther....100% irrelevant to science.
Spoken like a true "one of the boys".
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

User avatar
The Barbarian
Guru
Posts: 1236
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:40 pm
Has thanked: 264 times
Been thanked: 757 times

Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #33

Post by The Barbarian »

Jose Fly wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:29 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:55 pm The scientific community knows about him quite well. He is a veteran in the game.
And up to this point, he's had zero impact on how science is done. So unless he has something new, he's no different than a flat-earther....100% irrelevant to science.
Wells got a degree in biology because his master, the Rev. Myung Son Moon, told him he had a mission to "destroy evolution." Wells is a member of the Unification Church. So he began with a religious prohibition against evolution. Well has been a prolific author of articles for the Journal of Unification a Unification Church associated publication. He has published in real science journals as well.

Apparently, Wells is also active in denying that Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome is caused by the HIV virus.

In 1991, Wells and his mentor Phillip E. Johnson signed an open letter which said in full:

It is widely believed by the general public that a retrovirus called HIV causes the group [of] diseases called AIDS. Many biochemical scientists now question this hypothesis. We propose that a thorough reappraisal of the existing evidence for and against this hypothesis be conducted by a suitable independent group. We further propose that critical epidemiological studies be devised and undertaken.[59][60][61]

Wells and Johnson have been criticized, along with others, for their questioning of the scientific and medical consensus that HIV causes AIDS.[61] In the Washington University Law Review, Matthew J. Brauer, Barbara Forrest, and Steven G. Gey faulted Wells, Johnson, and others for denying the HIV/AIDS connection and promoting denialism via a petition designed to garner publicity but which did not have any scientific support.[62]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_ ... _advocate)

User avatar
We_Are_VENOM
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1632
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:33 am
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #34

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

The Barbarian wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 6:39 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:29 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:55 pm The scientific community knows about him quite well. He is a veteran in the game.
And up to this point, he's had zero impact on how science is done. So unless he has something new, he's no different than a flat-earther....100% irrelevant to science.
Wells got a degree in biology because his master, the Rev. Myung Son Moon, told him he had a mission to "destroy evolution." Wells is a member of the Unification Church. So he began with a religious prohibition against evolution. Well has been a prolific author of articles for the Journal of Unification a Unification Church associated publication. He has published in real science journals as well.

Apparently, Wells is also active in denying that Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome is caused by the HIV virus.

In 1991, Wells and his mentor Phillip E. Johnson signed an open letter which said in full:

It is widely believed by the general public that a retrovirus called HIV causes the group [of] diseases called AIDS. Many biochemical scientists now question this hypothesis. We propose that a thorough reappraisal of the existing evidence for and against this hypothesis be conducted by a suitable independent group. We further propose that critical epidemiological studies be devised and undertaken.[59][60][61]

Wells and Johnson have been criticized, along with others, for their questioning of the scientific and medical consensus that HIV causes AIDS.[61] In the Washington University Law Review, Matthew J. Brauer, Barbara Forrest, and Steven G. Gey faulted Wells, Johnson, and others for denying the HIV/AIDS connection and promoting denialism via a petition designed to garner publicity but which did not have any scientific support.[62]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_ ... _advocate)
You said all of that, and macroevolution is no more true than it was before you said it.
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

User avatar
The Barbarian
Guru
Posts: 1236
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:40 pm
Has thanked: 264 times
Been thanked: 757 times

Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #35

Post by The Barbarian »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:35 pm You said all of that, and macroevolution is no more true than it was before you said it.
Since it's been directly observed, that's not an issue. Perhaps you don't know what "macroevolution" is. It's the evolution of new species.

Even groups like Answers in Genesis now admit that speciation is a fact.

Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species. According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. The Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging.
https://answersingenesis.org/natural-se ... peciation/

And yes, it's been observed:
Genetics. 1935 Sep; 20(5): 527.
PMCID: PMC1208629
Drosophila Miranda, a New Species
Th. Dobzhansky


From the Dictionary of Biology:
Macroevolution
Definition
noun, plural: macroevolutions
Evolution happening on a large scale, e.g. at or above the level of a species, over geologic time resulting in the divergence of taxonomic groups.
Supplement
Macroevolution involves variation of allele frequencies at or above the level of a species, where an allele is a specific iteration of a given gene. It is an area of study concerned with variation in frequencies of alleles that are shared between species and with speciation events, and also includes extinction. It is contrasted with microevolution, which is mainly concerned with the small-scale patterns of evolution within a species or population.


The point is that Wells started with a presupposition that evolution was false. And because his religion depended on that he never could get by that presupposition. Note that creationism isn't the only weird thing he believes in. He's convinced that HIV doesn't cause AIDS.

User avatar
DrNoGods
Prodigy
Posts: 2719
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm
Location: Nevada
Has thanked: 593 times
Been thanked: 1645 times

Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #36

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #27]
This was a complete slaughter fest and I actually felt bad for the three "scientists".
A slaughter fest? Really? That video was a hilarious display of Hovind vomiting out the usual nonsense he is (in)famous for. He's demonstrably wrong on just about every point he tries to make, and as always (and to this day even after spending 9 years in jail for various crimes) his goal in life is to con people out of money by any means he can come up with. His shtick is the same YEC supporting, anti-evolution show he's been hustling since his fake Ph.D was mailed to him and he assigned himself the moniker "Dr. Dino."

Of all the religious people who could be chosen as a go-to person for science, this felon and con artist is the last person who should qualify. He has no legitimate science education, and has lost every debate he's ever engaged in with any actual scientist. No one should listen to him regarding anything science related as he has zero credentials, and an agenda to push that is all about getting donations, selling books and podcast merch, and making a buck for Kent Hovind. Actual science education is the last thing he cares anything about.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

User avatar
brunumb
Savant
Posts: 6047
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 6892 times
Been thanked: 3244 times

Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #37

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to DrNoGods in post #36]

Also worth mentioning is that debating is a skill that some theist propagandists have honed to a fine edge as that is basically all they do. Most scientists just go about doing their work and are not necessarily that well equipped to take on the skillful word-spinners. Winning debates does not necessarily mean that the true has been revealed.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

User avatar
DrNoGods
Prodigy
Posts: 2719
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm
Location: Nevada
Has thanked: 593 times
Been thanked: 1645 times

Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #38

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to brunumb in post #37]
Also worth mentioning is that debating is a skill that some theist propagandists have honed to a fine edge as that is basically all they do. Most scientists just go about doing their work and are not necessarily that well equipped to take on the skillful word-spinners. Winning debates does not necessarily mean that the true has been revealed.
True, and Hovind is one of the most egregious offenders. He is a YEC, which puts him in a no-win situation in any science dedate before it even starts, no matter how skilled he may be at word spinning. He just follows the same rules as flat earthers ... deny any and all evidence that contradicts the narrative and repeat his pitch at every opportunity (making sure to peddle as much merchandise as possible).
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

User avatar
Jose Fly
Guru
Posts: 1576
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Location: Out west somewhere
Has thanked: 352 times
Been thanked: 1054 times

Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #39

Post by Jose Fly »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 6:33 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:29 pm And up to this point, he's had zero impact on how science is done.
He has impacted those who've opened themselves up to be impacted, in a positive way, myself included.
So unless he has something new, he's no different than a flat-earther....100% irrelevant to science.
Spoken like a true "one of the boys".
What exactly is your point? Is there something specific from Wells that you find particularly persuasive?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

User avatar
Jose Fly
Guru
Posts: 1576
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Location: Out west somewhere
Has thanked: 352 times
Been thanked: 1054 times

Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #40

Post by Jose Fly »

The Barbarian wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 6:39 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:29 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:55 pm The scientific community knows about him quite well. He is a veteran in the game.
And up to this point, he's had zero impact on how science is done. So unless he has something new, he's no different than a flat-earther....100% irrelevant to science.
Wells got a degree in biology because his master, the Rev. Myung Son Moon, told him he had a mission to "destroy evolution." Wells is a member of the Unification Church. So he began with a religious prohibition against evolution. Well has been a prolific author of articles for the Journal of Unification a Unification Church associated publication. He has published in real science journals as well.

Apparently, Wells is also active in denying that Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome is caused by the HIV virus.

In 1991, Wells and his mentor Phillip E. Johnson signed an open letter which said in full:

It is widely believed by the general public that a retrovirus called HIV causes the group [of] diseases called AIDS. Many biochemical scientists now question this hypothesis. We propose that a thorough reappraisal of the existing evidence for and against this hypothesis be conducted by a suitable independent group. We further propose that critical epidemiological studies be devised and undertaken.[59][60][61]

Wells and Johnson have been criticized, along with others, for their questioning of the scientific and medical consensus that HIV causes AIDS.[61] In the Washington University Law Review, Matthew J. Brauer, Barbara Forrest, and Steven G. Gey faulted Wells, Johnson, and others for denying the HIV/AIDS connection and promoting denialism via a petition designed to garner publicity but which did not have any scientific support.[62]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_ ... _advocate)
Yep, it's always amusing to see fundamentalist Christians enthusiastically follow a Moonie. :lol:
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Post Reply