Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

[POI]

Dear Christians of all flavor(s),

I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?

It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".

That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.

I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

[DaveD49]

No, that came later. I think what led me to God was my discovery of the Fibonacci sequence, although I did not know anything about it at the time. You could say that I discovered God in a blade of grass. I was atheistic when 17-18 but when resting from mowing the lawn I sat down and rested with my back leaning against a tree and idly picked a blade of grass. In its order and symmetry I saw design and purpose. Then I saw it almost everywhere I looked! Over the next few years I went through a lot of stages from Deism through Roman Catholicism, and did examine many different religions including Islam. I found that Roman Catholicism was the absolute closest to my beliefs (although I do wonder about a few things taught there as well).

I wish you the fairest winds in your journey towards Him.

To the bold. Do you feel that is what most other religious people do as well? They have beliefs or feelings and then find an available religion that best matches their desires?

Unfortunately there are many who simply believe what they are told to believe. This is a problem not only with some Christian Churches, but Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and atheism. And often what they were told to believe may not have been the actual teaching of the particular Church. I approached it by examining the teaching of the particular Church and thinking about whether or not they agreed with logic.

Surely you take note that having beliefs or feelings and then finding an available religion that best matches these beliefs/feelings is not a valid way to arrive at truth claims?

You seem to have seen order and symmetry in a blade of grass and then searched until you found that the Roman Catholic beliefs best match your beliefs.

Pretty meaningless IMO when ultimetly it was your beliefs and feelings driving you to the desired conclusion you found.
Design and symmetry don't point to any god concept any more then how pointing to our chaotic universe disproves any god.

Noting that chaotic systems are everywhere and dominate the universe, therefore there are no gods would be illogical. Just like how pointing to something with symmetry and thinking there must be a god or gods would be illogical.

I'm open to their being gods, but would need more than some symmetry since I know of the chaos.

Be well.

I think most remain in the religion (or lack thereof) into which they were born. Some never question what they have been taught and never ask questions about it. Some do question what they have been taught and reject everything never looking at the matter deeper. On another board there was an atheist who I often spoke with that said that he was in his 70's and stopped believing in God when he was 5 years old. But his replies to questions indicated that even his present concept of God was the same as it was when he was 5. I don't believe in the concept of God which I had when I was 5 either. To a degree I still did when I was an atheist at 17-18. My "discovering God in a blade of grass" did not convince me that Roman Catholicism was the answer. It was the first step. My beliefs were constantly changing. I most certainly did not go in with the ides that "these are my beliefs" not let me find a faith that agrees with them. I was on a search for the truth and went wherever it led me. As I searched I found more and more things which I accepted as truth. The greatest truth I found was in the message of love taught by Jesus. When I scoured the various Christian religions Roman Catholicism stood out as the MOST truthful. I am not talking about how some people who claim to be Catholics live their lives, especially some priests, but rather the truth in its teachings.

The chaos you refer to also puzzled me. Why is there chaos? Why is there evil? Why is there suffering?. The answer I found was in the question Why would God create (in whichever way He chose) us at all? Why is there something rather than nothing? The answer to me was love. By its very nature love must be shared, hence His reason to create. Love is best when it is shared so, yes, He would want us to return that love. But how could we learn to love while in the presence of God? Certainly we could learn awe, respect, and gratefulness, but they are not love. Christ said that the greatest love that a person can have is the willingness to die for another. That is what He did. But love like that takes a willingness, a decision. We had to learn how to love. We do that by the very things we spoke about.... pain, suffering, toil. chaos. Through or experience of them we first learn compassion and sympathy for others experiencing the same thing. This starts with our own social circle, but when we truly learn to care about others that circle is an ever-expanding one. Eventually we reach the point of selfless love of all. When we are at that point then we can perhaps join with He who IS love.

[brunumb]

By its very nature love must be shared, hence His reason to create. Love is best when it is shared so, yes, He would want us to return that love. But how could we learn to love while in the presence of God?

The same way you grow to love anyone while in their presence. Loving an absent God is like a teenager falling in love with a pop star through the poster on their wall. As intense as it might feel, it's not real love. It's infatuation based on wishful thinking.

[DaveD49]

By its very nature love must be shared, hence His reason to create. Love is best when it is shared so, yes, He would want us to return that love. But how could we learn to love while in the presence of God?

The same way you grow to love anyone while in their presence. Loving an absent God is like a teenager falling in love with a pop star through the poster on their wall. As intense as it might feel, it's not real love. It's infatuation based on wishful thinking.

Sorry, but I only discovered God after I had learned what true love was. Until that time the only person I truly loved was myself.... and that was an ongoing on-off situation. All my thinking was focused on "What do I get out of the existing situation?" Sure I had people I cared about, but as a teen the person that was of utmost importance was ME. It was only after I learned to be focused on others that I grew as a man and truly discovered God.

[TRANSPONDER]

By its very nature love must be shared, hence His reason to create. Love is best when it is shared so, yes, He would want us to return that love. But how could we learn to love while in the presence of God?

The same way you grow to love anyone while in their presence. Loving an absent God is like a teenager falling in love with a pop star through the poster on their wall. As intense as it might feel, it's not real love. It's infatuation based on wishful thinking.

Sorry, but I only discovered God after I had learned what true love was. Until that time the only person I truly loved was myself.... and that was an ongoing on-off situation. All my thinking was focused on "What do I get out of the existing situation?" Sure I had people I cared about, but as a teen the person that was of utmost importance was ME. It was only after I learned to be focused on others that I grew as a man and truly discovered God.

That may be called an impressive and inspiring testimony. But... ...there's always the But. love opf fellow man does not have to be evidence for a god with the bolt -on belief that it explains all the problems. It comes across as little more than a massive faithbased delusion in God and all doubts and qeustion are 'Explained' thereby.

This isn't to slag you off or decry your faith, but to say that this may have convinced you (though blowed if I can see how) but witnessing your Faith to us, even as a conversion - story, will not do as an argument for a god, never mind any particular one.

[DaveD49]

By its very nature love must be shared, hence His reason to create. Love is best when it is shared so, yes, He would want us to return that love. But how could we learn to love while in the presence of God?

The same way you grow to love anyone while in their presence. Loving an absent God is like a teenager falling in love with a pop star through the poster on their wall. As intense as it might feel, it's not real love. It's infatuation based on wishful thinking.

Sorry, but I only discovered God after I had learned what true love was. Until that time the only person I truly loved was myself.... and that was an ongoing on-off situation. All my thinking was focused on "What do I get out of the existing situation?" Sure I had people I cared about, but as a teen the person that was of utmost importance was ME. It was only after I learned to be focused on others that I grew as a man and truly discovered God.

That may be called an impressive and inspiring testimony. But... ...there's always the But. love opf fellow man does not have to be evidence for a god with the bolt -on belief that it explains all the problems. It comes across as little more than a massive faithbased delusion in God and all doubts and qeustion are 'Explained' thereby.

This isn't to slag you off or decry your faith, but to say that this may have convinced you (though blowed if I can see how) but witnessing your Faith to us, even as a conversion - story, will not do as an argument for a god, never mind any particular one.

You keep on referring to a "particular god" as if there are more than one. I would agree that mankind has had many, many different concepts of God. That is completely understandable. That does not mean that all of these concepts of God were the full truth and God really was in fact the way they thought Him to be. They were seeking a God which they sensed existed but had absolutely no idea who He was and what He wanted. It was inevitable that they start to think that there were many gods who controlled different aspects of their lives... the sun, the weather, the seas, lightning, wind, gods of war, gods of peace, etc., etc.. But as time went on and as they learned other concepts of Him these views passed away for what they found to be the greater truth. Even in Moses time the "chosen people" were polytheistic. They referred to "their" God as the "Most High God" of all that existed. This can be seen in the story of Moses and the chief priests of the Pharaoh. Moses appealed to God and threw down his staff and it became a snake. The Egyptian priests appealed to their gods and threw down their staffs which also became snakes, but Moses' staff ate the others showing dominance. They were told to only worship the "Most High God" and not the others. This was a task they failed at time and time again. It was not until the time of the Babylonian Exile (circa 600BC) that the firm belief that one and only one God took root. Today ALL the major religions (including Hinduism) refer to the one God as "The Supreme Being" and all acknowledge that He is the God of all no matter what faith or lack thereof.

How you take what I said before and here is 100% up to you. I cannot "convert" you. I can't even try. Conversion can only come from yourself. But keep in mind that cannot be done without deep thought and being truthful with yourself. You have to decide which way truly makes logical sense to you. All I am doing is not providing "proof" of God but rather pointing to indications of His existence.

[TRANSPONDER]

By its very nature love must be shared, hence His reason to create. Love is best when it is shared so, yes, He would want us to return that love. But how could we learn to love while in the presence of God?

The same way you grow to love anyone while in their presence. Loving an absent God is like a teenager falling in love with a pop star through the poster on their wall. As intense as it might feel, it's not real love. It's infatuation based on wishful thinking.

Sorry, but I only discovered God after I had learned what true love was. Until that time the only person I truly loved was myself.... and that was an ongoing on-off situation. All my thinking was focused on "What do I get out of the existing situation?" Sure I had people I cared about, but as a teen the person that was of utmost importance was ME. It was only after I learned to be focused on others that I grew as a man and truly discovered God.

That may be called an impressive and inspiring testimony. But... ...there's always the But. love opf fellow man does not have to be evidence for a god with the bolt -on belief that it explains all the problems. It comes across as little more than a massive faithbased delusion in God and all doubts and qeustion are 'Explained' thereby.

This isn't to slag you off or decry your faith, but to say that this may have convinced you (though blowed if I can see how) but witnessing your Faith to us, even as a conversion - story, will not do as an argument for a god, never mind any particular one.

You keep on referring to a "particular god" as if there are more than one. I would agree that mankind has had many, many different concepts of God. That is completely understandable. That does not mean that all of these concepts of God were the full truth and God really was in fact the way they thought Him to be. They were seeking a God which they sensed existed but had absolutely no idea who He was and what He wanted. It was inevitable that they start to think that there were many gods who controlled different aspects of their lives... the sun, the weather, the seas, lightning, wind, gods of war, gods of peace, etc., etc.. But as time went on and as they learned other concepts of Him these views passed away for what they found to be the greater truth. Even in Moses time the "chosen people" were polytheistic. They referred to "their" God as the "Most High God" of all that existed. This can be seen in the story of Moses and the chief priests of the Pharaoh. Moses appealed to God and threw down his staff and it became a snake. The Egyptian priests appealed to their gods and threw down their staffs which also became snakes, but Moses' staff ate the others showing dominance. They were told to only worship the "Most High God" and not the others. This was a task they failed at time and time again. It was not until the time of the Babylonian Exile (circa 600BC) that the firm belief that one and only one God took root. Today ALL the major religions (including Hinduism) refer to the one God as "The Supreme Being" and all acknowledge that He is the God of all no matter what faith or lack thereof.

How you take what I said before and here is 100% up to you. I cannot "convert" you. I can't even try. Conversion can only come from yourself. But keep in mind that cannot be done without deep thought and being truthful with yourself. You have to decide which way truly makes logical sense to you. All I am doing is not providing "proof" of God but rather pointing to indications of His existence.

Yep.What I suggest is that humans have looked at the world we are in and could not explain it other than a big invisible human doing it. Aside the red - herring of subsequent gods invented to do different things, the basic creator that has to be addressed by all these religions are the different gods I talk about. It isn't polytheism; it is 'which one god is the right one?'. This of course is about the right religion to be in and the essential (postulated) creator is the same one - just that all the others are doing it wrong. So the burden of proof falls on the god - claimants not only to show that thee is a god but which religion is the right one.

But before you can even try to persuade atheists of which religion is the right one, you have to validate this one creator - god, (deist -god) which doesn't bother us in the least as deists are, at base, irreligious theists and our allies. Though it remains a debate about whether there is a case for a creator at all. There isn't really a logically or evidentially compelling one, even aside from 'which religion?'

It only remains to say that (on experience) it is futile to expect the opponent to be converted. As you say, they have to do it themselves. But the reasons to reconsider is the starting - point and that is the point of posting here on forums like these at all. This is why, as soon as the opponent revert to 'Faith';, we goddless have won the debate, even if the opponent will not of course, change their mindset; at least not yet.

And of course, the point of Winning is not to get bragging rights or flaunt silverware, but to show who has the best case; that's what it's all about.

[DaveD49]

By its very nature love must be shared, hence His reason to create. Love is best when it is shared so, yes, He would want us to return that love. But how could we learn to love while in the presence of God?

The same way you grow to love anyone while in their presence. Loving an absent God is like a teenager falling in love with a pop star through the poster on their wall. As intense as it might feel, it's not real love. It's infatuation based on wishful thinking.

Sorry, but I only discovered God after I had learned what true love was. Until that time the only person I truly loved was myself.... and that was an ongoing on-off situation. All my thinking was focused on "What do I get out of the existing situation?" Sure I had people I cared about, but as a teen the person that was of utmost importance was ME. It was only after I learned to be focused on others that I grew as a man and truly discovered God.

That may be called an impressive and inspiring testimony. But... ...there's always the But. love opf fellow man does not have to be evidence for a god with the bolt -on belief that it explains all the problems. It comes across as little more than a massive faithbased delusion in God and all doubts and qeustion are 'Explained' thereby.

This isn't to slag you off or decry your faith, but to say that this may have convinced you (though blowed if I can see how) but witnessing your Faith to us, even as a conversion - story, will not do as an argument for a god, never mind any particular one.

You keep on referring to a "particular god" as if there are more than one. I would agree that mankind has had many, many different concepts of God. That is completely understandable. That does not mean that all of these concepts of God were the full truth and God really was in fact the way they thought Him to be. They were seeking a God which they sensed existed but had absolutely no idea who He was and what He wanted. It was inevitable that they start to think that there were many gods who controlled different aspects of their lives... the sun, the weather, the seas, lightning, wind, gods of war, gods of peace, etc., etc.. But as time went on and as they learned other concepts of Him these views passed away for what they found to be the greater truth. Even in Moses time the "chosen people" were polytheistic. They referred to "their" God as the "Most High God" of all that existed. This can be seen in the story of Moses and the chief priests of the Pharaoh. Moses appealed to God and threw down his staff and it became a snake. The Egyptian priests appealed to their gods and threw down their staffs which also became snakes, but Moses' staff ate the others showing dominance. They were told to only worship the "Most High God" and not the others. This was a task they failed at time and time again. It was not until the time of the Babylonian Exile (circa 600BC) that the firm belief that one and only one God took root. Today ALL the major religions (including Hinduism) refer to the one God as "The Supreme Being" and all acknowledge that He is the God of all no matter what faith or lack thereof.

How you take what I said before and here is 100% up to you. I cannot "convert" you. I can't even try. Conversion can only come from yourself. But keep in mind that cannot be done without deep thought and being truthful with yourself. You have to decide which way truly makes logical sense to you. All I am doing is not providing "proof" of God but rather pointing to indications of His existence.

Yep.What I suggest is that humans have looked at the world we are in and could not explain it other than a big invisible human doing it. Aside the red - herring of subsequent gods invented to do different things, the basic creator that has to be addressed by all these religions are the different gods I talk about. It isn't polytheism; it is 'which one god is the right one?'. This of course is about the right religion to be in and the essential (postulated) creator is the same one - just that all the others are doing it wrong. So the burden of proof falls on the god - claimants not only to show that thee is a god but which religion is the right one.

But before you can even try to persuade atheists of which religion is the right one, you have to validate this one creator - god, (deist -god) which doesn't bother us in the least as deists are, at base, irreligious theists and our allies. Though it remains a debate about whether there is a case for a creator at all. There isn't really a logically or evidentially compelling one, even aside from 'which religion?'

It only remains to say that (on experience) it is futile to expect the opponent to be converted. As you say, they have to do it themselves. But the reasons to reconsider is the starting - point and that is the point of posting here on forums like these at all. This is why, as soon as the opponent revert to 'Faith';, we goddless have won the debate, even if the opponent will not of course, change their mindset; at least not yet.

And of course, the point of Winning is not to get bragging rights or flaunt silverware, but to show who has the best case; that's what it's all about.

Yes, the ancient ones had that mistaken concept of God. But very few if any truly believe that today. The human race has grown up. "Which religion?" (or lack thereof) is entirely up to the individual based on where they find the highest degree of truth. Certainly I believe in the message of love taught by Christ, but that message can be found to a degree in all major religions. I can only talk about what makes sense to me, and as I said I am not trying to "convert" anyone; I am just tossing out things that I have learned over the years that I found to be true. I have found certain things to be absolutely true. These didn't come to me overnight but rather as a part of an ongoing search taking decades. If you find some of these things interesting, that's fine. If you don't find them interesting then that is fine too. But my point is to search for the TRUTH rather than being like Pilate who said to Christ "Truth? What is truth?" If you find truth you will be happier for it. But it requires an honest search.

And I totally disagree that "winning" or "losing" or "showing who has the best case" is about anything important. Those are only important to those who are "ME" centered. What is important to me is becoming a better me. And I try to do that through love.

[brunumb]

I have found certain things to be absolutely true. These didn't come to me overnight but rather as a part of an ongoing search taking decades. If you find some of these things interesting, that's fine. If you don't find them interesting then that is fine too. But my point is to search for the TRUTH rather than being like Pilate who said to Christ "Truth? What is truth?" If you find truth you will be happier for it. But it requires an honest search.

I often wonder just how honest that search really is when put under closer scrutiny. Once one has established some kernel of belief what may happen is that any subsequent search for truth can subconsciously involve merely seeking confirmation. Like going through a big bag of jelly beans looking for the raspberry ones that one likes the most. Confirmation bias plays a big part in how we regard any information that has the potential to affect the beliefs we already hold.

[We_Are_VENOM]

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

If you ain't convinced that God exists, in general, then how can you be convinced that the Christian God exists, specifically.

Makes no sense.

[DaveD49]

I have found certain things to be absolutely true. These didn't come to me overnight but rather as a part of an ongoing search taking decades. If you find some of these things interesting, that's fine. If you don't find them interesting then that is fine too. But my point is to search for the TRUTH rather than being like Pilate who said to Christ "Truth? What is truth?" If you find truth you will be happier for it. But it requires an honest search.

I often wonder just how honest that search really is when put under closer scrutiny. Once one has established some kernel of belief what may happen is that any subsequent search for truth can subconsciously involve merely seeking confirmation. Like going through a big bag of jelly beans looking for the raspberry ones that one likes the most. Confirmation bias plays a big part in how we regard any information that has the potential to affect the beliefs we already hold.

If I doubted the truthfulness of what I have found then I would have not yet found the truth. I do not have to appeal to someone else or someone else's scrutiny to tell me what the truth is. I need no confirmation of my thoughts on certain matters. I found deep truth in Christ's teaching of love for all. When I truly learned the implications of what they meant they became for me words to live by. Even if it was somehow proven that Christ was the fictional character atheists think He was that would not change the words one iota nor my feeling about them. That is perhaps me biggest beef I have with some atheists. They seemingly always nip at the edges of things... they talk about the veracity of miracles, how the Christ story came about, how many other "gods" who were supposedly born from virgins, wanting "proof" of God, etc., etc. But all the time they are overlooking the message of love He preached. And it is His message that is the most important.