How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

[otseng]

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:

How can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?

The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.

For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Thread Milestones

• Case study of Hezekiah
• Start discussing global flood / Flood Model summary
• Recap arguments of authority of the Bible
• Start discussing Tower of Babel / Tower of Babel summary
• Start discussing archaeology / Philosophy of science / Origin of alphabet / End of discussion on archaeology
• Start discussing cosmology / Concluding cosmology
• Start discussing Shroud of Turin / Summary top TS imaging theories / Created DefendingChristianity.com and TS subforums / Shroud of Turin summary
• Start discussing Bible and resurrection
• Start discussing the Messiahship of Jesus / Messiahship of Jesus wrap up
• Start discussing Old Testament ethics
• Summary argument of atheism and morality / God basis for objective morality
• Start discussing genocide / Genocide summary argument
• Start discussing slavery / Slavery summary argument
• Start discussing homosexuality / Homosexuality summary argument
• Old Testament ethics summary argument
• Start discussing philosophy / Summary argument on philosophy
• Start discussing creation of universe / Summary argument universe was created

[Diogenes]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1249]

Yes, ignorant humans believed in a geocentric universe like the Bible describes, but you ignore the fact a creator 'God' would have known better. Not only is the solar system not geocentric, the universe is obviously not. The Earth is the 'center of the universe' only in the sense that any point in the universe, any point could be taken subjectively as the 'center' from the POV of a local observer. The 'God' that supposedly created the entire universe is not a local observer. He created (supposedly) the whole shebang.

Looking up at a clear night sky, you see stars in every direction. It almost feels as if you're at the center of the cosmos. But are you? And if not, where is the center of the universe?

The universe, in fact, has no center. Ever since the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago, the universe has been expanding. But despite its name, the Big Bang wasn't an explosion that burst outward from a central point of detonation. The universe started out extremely compact and tiny. Then every point in the universe expanded equally, and that continues today. And so, without any point of origin, the universe has no center.

Correct.

In the early-20th century, the discovery of other galaxies and the development of the Big Bang theory led to the development of cosmological models of a homogeneous, isotropic Universe, which lacks a central point and is expanding at all points.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... e_Universe

But the point for the discussion here is that the Bible claims the Earth is the center, and immovable. Otseng and others keep trying to defend the cosmology of the Bible since it was supposedly the result of a creator god who recorded his thoughts in the Bible. These and other apologists like to distract by discussing 'flat Earth' and a geocentric solar system, claiming [somehow] the Bible does not describe a flat, geocentric solar system. But they, obviously, cannot dispute the Biblical claim of an immovable Earth.

The point of course is that the Bible is fallible. It was written by men and reflects their understanding of cosmology at the time they wrote. If the Bible was inspired by God it would be perfect and would contain ZERO imperfections and human misunderstandings of cosmology.

[William]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1251]

But the point for the discussion here is that the Bible claims the Earth is the center, and immovable.

I have asked for evidence to support this claim about "what the Bible claims" and no one has produced anything I can take a look into.

I don't want to just go supposing that the claim about "what the Bible claims" is a true claim, rather than simply an unsupported opinion...

[Diogenes]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1251]

But the point for the discussion here is that the Bible claims the Earth is the center, and immovable.

I have asked for evidence to support this claim about "what the Bible claims" and no one has produced anything I can take a look into.

I don't want to just go supposing that the claim about "what the Bible claims" is a true claim, rather than simply an unsupported opinion...

Have you ever actually read the Bible?

He established the earth upon its foundations,
So that it will not totter forever and ever.
1 Chronicles 16:30

Tremble before Him, all the earth;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.
Psalm 33:9

For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.
Psalm 93:1

The Lord reigns, He is clothed with majesty;
The Lord has clothed and girded Himself with strength;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.
Psalm 96:10

Say among the nations, “The Lord reigns;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved;
He will judge the peoples with equity.”
Psalm 119:89-90

Isaiah 45:18: "...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast..."
Isaiah 45:18

“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
Job 38:4

[William]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1253]

Are you claiming that the script you provided are examples of the Bible claiming The Earth being the center of the universe?

I see no reference or use of the word 'center' in any of them.

What I do see is reference to the Earth being a stable environment. It travels about 1.6 million miles every day [one spin on its axis] yet we hardly notice unless we do the math.

It has survived at least five mass extinction events - and is still going strong...

[Diogenes]

Are you claiming that the script you provided are examples of the Bible claiming The Earth being the center of the universe?

I see no reference or use of the word 'center' in any of them.

Of course not. You asked for references regarding

"... the Bible claims the Earth is the center, and immovable.

I gave them:

"He established the earth upon its foundations,
So that it will not totter forever and ever.
1 Chronicles 16:30

Tremble before Him, all the earth;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.
Psalm 33:9

For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.
Psalm 93:1

The Lord reigns, He is clothed with majesty;
The Lord has clothed and girded Himself with strength;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.
Psalm 96:10

Say among the nations, “The Lord reigns;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved;
He will judge the peoples with equity.”
Psalm 119:89-90

Isaiah 45:18: "...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast..."
Isaiah 45:18

“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
Job 38:4

You disingenuously pretended you only asked for for for references re: Biblical claims about the Earth being the center of the universe, ignoring its claim about the Earth's immovability.
I will neither read nor respond to those who mis-characterize their own questions or the responses of others.

[William]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1255]

Note to the reader;
Diogenes: Yes, ignorant humans believed in a geocentric universe like the Bible describes

[otseng]

Yes, ignorant humans believed in a geocentric universe like the Bible describes, but you ignore the fact a creator 'God' would have known better.

They were not ignorant. The astronomers knew about stellar parallax since the time of the Greeks and none was detected.

And after I asked the question,..

If you were an observer of the heavens before the invention of the telescope and space ships, how would you prove heliocentrism is true?

And nobody answered this by bringing up stellar parallax. Yet the ancients knew about this problem. So, it is not the ancients that are ignorant.

The Earth is the 'center of the universe' only in the sense that any point in the universe, any point could be taken subjectively as the 'center' from the POV of a local observer.

Not necessarily. If you were standing in a circle, it would appear you would be in the center if you could not see the boundaries of the circle or if the boundary is equidistant from you. If you were standing near a boundary, it's obvious you are not standing in the center.

Your post only shows the extent to which the apologist will twist words, history, and any semblance of rationality to defend the indefensible: the rationality and accuracy of an ancient man made cosmological myth.

I'll let readers decide who twists words, history, and rationality.

And my question has still not been answered...

So, question for people that believe we are not at the center of the universe, what argument and evidence proves that to be the case?

[Diogenes]

[Replying to otseng in post #1257]
Both you and William pointedly ignore the fact the Bible declares the Earth immovable. Both the ancients who wrote the Bible and their imaginary god were ignorant of the fact the Earth moves. Naturally you do not want to deal with this because you cannot gloss it over. You also misuse the word 'ignorant.' One can be ignorant of a fact without being ignorant in general.

So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on its enemies,

as it is written in the Book of Jashar.

The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.

[William]

[Replying to otseng in post #1257]
Both you and William pointedly ignore the fact the Bible declares the Earth immovable. Both the ancients who wrote the Bible and their imaginary god were ignorant of the fact the Earth moves. Naturally you do not want to deal with this because you cannot gloss it over. You also misuse the word 'ignorant.' One can be ignorant of a fact without being ignorant in general.

So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on its enemies,

as it is written in the Book of Jashar.

The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.

I am not ignoring anything. I was dealing with the center-of-the-universe alleged Bible-claim.

I even made some comments? about the "immovable earth" claims...but for now, since my position is different from otseng's, I think it appropriate that I keep my thoughts about that to myself and let otseng give his answer first.

[brunumb]

And my question has still not been answered...

So, question for people that believe we are not at the center of the universe, what argument and evidence proves that to be the case?

Can it be answered either way? Is there actually a centre to the universe to begin with? Earth revolves around the Sun which is the centre of our Solar System. But the Sun is in an outer arm of our galaxy which rotates about a super massive black hole at its centre. Galaxies are all moving away from each other, although Andromeda and the Milky Way appear to be on a collision course to merge in the distant future. Anyway, considering all that, it is hard for me to imagine Earth as somehow being at the centre of it all.