Do you understand those on the other side?

[Jose Fly]

As I've pointed out many times (probably too many times), I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian environment. I was taught young-earth creationism from an early age, was told prayer and reading the Bible were the answer to most of life's problems and questions, and witnessed all sorts of "interesting" things such as speaking in tongues, faith healing, end times predictions, etc.

Yet despite being completely immersed in this culture, I can't recall a time in my life when I ever believed any of it. However, unlike some of my peers at the time I didn't really find it boring. In fact, I found a lot of it to be rather fascinating because.....very little of it made any sense to me. I just could not understand the people, their beliefs, their way of thinking, or much of anything that I saw and heard. When I saw them anointing with oil someone who had the flu and later saw the virus spread (of course), I could not understand what they were thinking. When I saw them make all sorts of failed predictions about the Soviet Union and the end times, yet never even acknowledge their errors while continuing to make more predictions, I was baffled. Speaking in tongues was of particular interest to me because it really made no sense to me.

In the years that I've been debating creationists it's the same thing. When I see them say "no transitional fossils" or "no new genetic information" only to ignore examples of those things when they're presented, I can't relate to that way of thinking at all. When I see them demand evidence for things only to ignore it after it's provided, I can't relate. When I see them quote mine a scientific paper and after someone points it out they completely ignore it, I can't relate.

Now to be clear, I think I "understand" some of what's behind these behaviors (i.e., the psychological factors), but what I don't understand is how the people engaging in them seem to be completely oblivious to it all. What goes on in their mind when they demand "show me the evidence", ignore everything that's provided in response, and then come back later and make the same demand all over again? Are they so blinded by the need to maintain their beliefs that they literally block out all memories of it? Again....I just don't get it.

So the point of discussion for this thread is....how about you? For the "evolutionists", can you relate to the creationists' way of thinking and behaviors? For the creationists, are there behaviors from the other side that baffle you, and you just don't understand? Do you look at folks like me and think to yourselves, "I just cannot relate to his way of thinking?"

Or is it just me?

[We_Are_VENOM]

That's very different from saying that abiogenesis is possible. You're sure (definitely) ... I'm claiming possibility.

The fact that you believe it is possible, demonstrates you really don't get it.

Wow ... that is some statement. The entire universe was created just for humans to exist and wonder at it.

As if that isn't what they do anyway.

Amazing thought. Good thing we developed telescopes and other tools to see more of it then, otherwise the parts not visible to the naked eye would be a total waste of all that creating.

As if there isn't a shock value of "Wow, all this cool stuff was out there the entire time".

Remember, revelations and discovery are predicated throughout the Bible.

You sure give humans a special place in it all

I didn't. God did.

... far more special that we probably deserve given that a measly few million years ago this Earth, full of life forms, had no humans present at all.

Assuming Earth is that old...but even if it was...what is time to one whose existence is eternal?

For my worldview, how the universe, atoms, etc. came into existence is irrelevant. My clock starts 4.6 billion years ago when our solar system formed (we're pretty sure of that number), and by then everything that existed, including matter and the physical constants, laws, etc. were in place. I don't need to know anything prior to 4.6 billion years ago to be convinced that the planets formed from the accretion disk surrounding the Sun when it formed, Earth eventually cooled enough for life to appear in the ballpark of 4 billion years ago (and how that happened is also irrelevant ... evolution does not depend on that mechanism), and evolution explains how life diversified from that point until today. The mechanism for origin of the universe has absolutely nothing to do with that scenario. Good that people are trying to figure that out, but it plays no role in what happened on Earth from its formation until now.

So one big giant "cart before the horse" fallacy.

Gotcha.

See above ... completely irrelevant to the happenings on Earth from 4.6 billion years ago until today.

Opinions.

Sorry you wasted time on the Walmart floor buffer analogy

I did, didn't I.

I will get the time back by offering one sentence responses to you until i feel we are equal.

Starting...now..

but how the universe came into existence, whether gods were involved, etc. has nothing to do with how things proceeded on Earth after it formed. None of those events depend on how the universe came to be.

I simply disagree and stand by what Ive been saying.

What problem? This is apparently about how long it took from Earth's formation to when the first life forms appeared, based on the oldest evidence for life that we've found to date. It took so long probably because it is a difficult and rare event (at least in this solar system), but difficult and rare doesn't mean impossible ... we are here after all.

Cart before the horse.

He sure thinks a lot of us then. Strange though that he'd kill off all humans but 8 in a global flood after creating the entire universe just for us to marvel at. I'm sniffing some major inconsistencies here if humans are so special that the entire universe was created for our benefit.

Opinions.

[JoeyKnothead]

How arrogant must one be to think a god created all this, and us, and cares so much about us he's willing to condemn us to Hell to show it?

It's a hubris I'll never understand.

[Inquirer]

How arrogant must one be to think a god created all this, and us, and cares so much about us he's willing to condemn us to Hell to show it?

It's a hubris I'll never understand.

So the majority of people who are registered at this forum, the same forum that welcomes you as a guest and lets you participate, are all perceived by you as "arrogant", that sums you up perfectly I think.

[Jose Fly]

The "other" viewpoint is simply that the record could be evidence of true discontinuity, pay attention.

What do you mean by "true discontinuity"?

I mean not simply an apparent discontinuity, like the absence of expected fossils is real rather than an artifact of poor preservation, like things we think will have existed didn't actually ever exist.

A discontinuous process for generating life...

What do you mean by that?

A process where morphology changes but without the thousands of discrete intermediate steps we'd expect from evolution and without the great time periods.

So is it accurate to say that your position is....since the record is discontinuous, the process that created it must also be discontinuous?

[JoeyKnothead]

How arrogant must one be to think a god created all this, and us, and cares so much about us he's willing to condemn us to Hell to show it?

It's a hubris I'll never understand.

So the majority of people who are registered at this forum, the same forum that welcomes you as a guest and lets you participate, are all perceived by you as "arrogant", that sums you up perfectly I think.

Lol

So, a god, he's just sitting up there, being all goddy and all, doing his god stuff, just godding along.

But being all-everything, well that just aint enough. Dangit, it just ain't.

So he built him a fine-tuned universe, and a fine tuned solar system, with it a fine tuned Earth, just so's he can fetch him a human up out of a magic mudpie. But that ain't good enough either, so he yanks him a rib out of that'n to make him another'n. Only she has the audacity to seek knowledge, cause it's always the women folk causing trouble. Well then along comes two boys, who I guess make brides out of them godly mudpies, and along the way there comes a sailor in a great big giant boat, with the critters two by two.

But that ain't good enough. So god gets him some married chick pregnant, and this young'n, he ain't your typical young'n, he's here to save you from your sins and give you everlasting life. And a love, I'm here to tell it, boy howdy, what a love.

I'm only sorry "arrogant" and "hubris" don't fully describe the situation.

Now, for those who'd find those terms insulting - this line of argument is about the thought, not the person. As we know, we all, each and all of us have us some pride we don't need all of. This ain't about the person, but the idea.

It's no better'n me going around bragging cause I got me this eighth grade education, knowing full well some folks just simply ain't got the brains it takes to get so far.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #491]

The fact that you believe it is possible, demonstrates you really don't get it.

The fact that I believe abiogenesis is possible demonstrates I don't get .... what? What is "it"?

So one big giant "cart before the horse" fallacy.

Not at all. How things proceeded on Earth from its formation 4.6 billion years ago until now has no relationship to the mechanism that created the universe many billions of years before that. Pick your favorite origin of the universe mechanism (Big Bang, some other natural phenomenon, god being, etc.) and fast forward to 4.6 billion years ago, and Earth would exist just as it does now for any of those choices (just like evolution would have proceeded the same as it has for any of your favorite origin of life mechanisms). Putting the cart before the horse would be something like claiming processes on Earth somehow relate to how the universe came into being, but that's not what I did (just the opposite).

I simply disagree and stand by what Ive been saying.

So you believe that everything that happened on Earth from 4.6 billions years ago until now has some dependence on HOW the universe came into existence billions of years earlier? What could the mechanism for origin of the universe possibly have to do with how processes on Earth unfolded billions of years later?

[Inquirer]

The "other" viewpoint is simply that the record could be evidence of true discontinuity, pay attention.

What do you mean by "true discontinuity"?

I mean not simply an apparent discontinuity, like the absence of expected fossils is real rather than an artifact of poor preservation, like things we think will have existed didn't actually ever exist.

A discontinuous process for generating life...

What do you mean by that?

A process where morphology changes but without the thousands of discrete intermediate steps we'd expect from evolution and without the great time periods.

So is it accurate to say that your position is....since the record is discontinuous, the process that created it must also be discontinuous?

No, again you've not been paying attention. My position is that if the process were discontinuous then the record we have is consistent with that.

The process could conceivably have been continuous but the record is what I'd expect to see if the process had been discontinuous.

Nothing in the fossil record proves or even supports the belief in a continuous process that's ben running for billions of years.

[William]

[Replying to DrNoGods in post #496]

How things proceeded on Earth from its formation 4.6 billion years ago until now has no relationship to the mechanism that created the universe many billions of years before that. Pick your favorite origin of the universe mechanism (Big Bang, some other natural phenomenon, god being, etc.) and fast forward to 4.6 billion years ago, and Earth would exist just as it does now for any of those choices (just like evolution would have proceeded the same as it has for any of your favorite origin of life mechanisms).

Can you please explain "has no relationship to the mechanism that created the universe" re "How things proceeded on Earth" because I am unclear as to why this should logically be the case.

[Inquirer]

How arrogant must one be to think a god created all this, and us, and cares so much about us he's willing to condemn us to Hell to show it?

It's a hubris I'll never understand.

So the majority of people who are registered at this forum, the same forum that welcomes you as a guest and lets you participate, are all perceived by you as "arrogant", that sums you up perfectly I think.

Lol

So, a god, he's just sitting up there, being all goddy and all, doing his god stuff, just godding along.

But being all-everything, well that just aint enough. Dangit, it just ain't.

So he built him a fine-tuned universe, and a fine tuned solar system, with it a fine tuned Earth, just so's he can fetch him a human up out of a magic mudpie. But that ain't good enough either, so he yanks him a rib out of that'n to make him another'n. Only she has the audacity to seek knowledge, cause it's always the women folk causing trouble. Well then along comes two boys, who I guess make brides out of them godly mudpies, and along the way there comes a sailor in a great big giant boat, with the critters two by two.

But that ain't good enough. So god gets him some married chick pregnant, and this young'n, he ain't your typical young'n, he's here to save you from your sins and give you everlasting life. And a love, I'm here to tell it, boy howdy, what a love.

I'm only sorry "arrogant" and "hubris" don't fully describe the situation.

Now, for those who'd find those terms insulting - this line of argument is about the thought, not the person. As we know, we all, each and all of us have us some pride we don't need all of. This ain't about the person, but the idea.

It's no better'n me going around bragging cause I got me this eighth grade education, knowing full well some folks just simply ain't got the brains it takes to get so far.

OK we get it, you don't believe in God, now please change the record.

[We_Are_VENOM]

The fact that I believe abiogenesis is possible demonstrates I don't get .... what? What is "it"?

Abiogenesis is impossible, but you believe it is possible.

Not at all. How things proceeded on Earth from its formation 4.6 billion years ago until now has no relationship to the mechanism that created the universe many billions of years before that. Pick your favorite origin of the universe mechanism (Big Bang, some other natural phenomenon, god being, etc.) and fast forward to 4.6 billion years ago, and Earth would exist just as it does now for any of those choices (just like evolution would have proceeded the same as it has for any of your favorite origin of life mechanisms). Putting the cart before the horse would be something like claiming processes on Earth somehow relate to how the universe came into being, but that's not what I did (just the opposite).

How the universe originated, is where the contention lies between theism/atheism.

So you believe that everything that happened on Earth from 4.6 billions years ago until now has some dependence on HOW the universe came into existence billions of years earlier?

Yeah, it is called causes and effects, over the course of billions of years.

What could the mechanism for origin of the universe possibly have to do with how processes on Earth unfolded billions of years later?

Same answer as above.