If you were Satan....

[Athetotheist]

I remember a TV preacher once asking his broadcast audience, "If you were Satan....." I don't remember the rest of the question, but I seem to remember that he was talking about prophecy and arguing that Satan was up to some diabolical mischief ("If you were Satan, isn't that what you would do?").

A lot of detail in Christian scripture about what is to happen before Jesus returns is tied to the activity of "Satan". The appearance of the "antichrist", in particular, is supposed to be part of Satan's last gambit before he goes down to utter defeat.

Since it was asked of me how I would react if I were Satan, I think it's fair for me to answer. I know that "Satan" is supposed to be a being of superhuman intelligence, but I can't help thinking that if such a being actually existed and if I were that being, I could do a lot better.

If I were "Satan", I would scrap the antichrist plan. If it's all laid out in the Bible, then everyone knows what to expect and you've lost the element of surprise. With that one simple deviation from the prophetic scenario, the whole thing would be gummed up. No antichrist, no mark of the beast, no abomination of desolation, no anything I was supposed to do as Satan to set the stage for the return of Jesus. And without those prophetic components in place, Jesus couldn't return to fulfill prophecy. And how could anyone stop me? I wouldn't be taking some action which could be prevented; I would be defeating prophecy by not taking action.

So let me pass the preacher's question on to you. If you were "Satan", what would you do----or not do----to thwart prophecy?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #259]

Okay - feel free to say where the misunderstanding occurred. Otherwise, it doesn't matter that much to me to have to follow your links in the hope that doing so will somehow sort it...

I'm not a mind reader, I cannot tell you where your misunderstanding occurred. I can only confirm that it did because you attributed a theology to Jehovahs Witnesses which was inaccurate. You also seem to be implying that the beasts of Revelation equate to the Antichrist which again is not what Jehovah's Witnesses believe.

Can you connect the Mark of the Beast part of the prophesy to this idea, that we might understand the significance of this take on things?

Q: What is it about the Beast-Church which can be said to show the association between what the mark is identified as being, and with that - how this mark allows for folk to buy and sell.

Indeed you ask a series of questions which reflect a misunderstanding of all the elements IN said question. According to Jehovahs Witness theology...

- the prophecy about the "mark of the beast" is not directly linked to the identity of the antichrist

- the mark of the beast is not strictly religious in nature

- the Church (the churches of Christendom) are not the antichrist

- the scarlet beast of the book of Revelation and the Church (the churches of Christendom)are not the same thing

JW



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[William]

I don't see how I misunderstood. You say that I have. You don't say how you know that I have misunderstood. Since you are not a mind reader, I will accept that you do not know that I misunderstood you and are simply saying that I have, perhaps so that you can avoid having to answer my questions.

[JehovahsWitness]

I don't see how I misunderstood. You say that I have. You don't say how you know that I have misunderstood. ...

I cannot debate your cognitive faculties. However, any time you WRITE something about the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses that is not correct you can be sure I (or one of my brothers or sisters) will call you out.

As for your questions, if you ask one I am interested in answering I will do so.



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[The Nice Centurion]

I don't see how I misunderstood. You say that I have. You don't say how you know that I have misunderstood. Since you are not a mind reader, I will accept that you do not know that I misunderstood you and are simply saying that I have, perhaps so that you can avoid having to answer my questions.

Perhaps it is all a big Misunderstanding.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #258

I do not cheat, but gave good biblical and christian reasons for why the "Sheriff Satan theory" could be valid!

You on the other hand Just assume, against biblicality as against christian understanding, Satan to be able to thwart prophecy without even giving some explanation.
Your assuming that Satan would be wanting to thwart all prophecy also would require more explanation.

Correction: You invent a nonbiblical plot by the powers of heaven for "Satan" to conveniently oppose, which is irrelevant since it has nothing to do with his potential to nullify prophecy by not going along with it, and you continue to pretend that your distraction is an unbeatable show-stopper.

From the Christian concept of "Satan" presented in the Christian Bible, I have logically extrapolated motive, means and opportunity for him to nullify prophecy and you simply continue to deny that I have done so.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to William in post #257

Which would fulfil at least that part of prophesy, yes?

Partial fulfillment isn't enough.

It wouldn't be a true [complete] fulfillment without the beast showing up first.

I doubt that it would matter...

It might not matter to you, but it would matter in the realm of prophetic fulfillment.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #258

I do not cheat, but gave good biblical and christian reasons for why the "Sheriff Satan theory" could be valid!

You on the other hand Just assume, against biblicality as against christian understanding, Satan to be able to thwart prophecy without even giving some explanation.
Your assuming that Satan would be wanting to thwart all prophecy also would require more explanation.

Correction: You invent a nonbiblical plot by the powers of heaven for "Satan" to conveniently oppose, which is irrelevant since it has nothing to do with his potential to nullify prophecy by not going along with it, and you continue to pretend that your distraction is an unbeatable show-stopper.

The Sheriff Satan theory is not unbiblical of course, but comes from what we have in the bible annd what we know about christianity.
To answer your OP question as good as possible, we should learm ore about Satans goals and also about his Background. That is no show stopper, but science at work for learning more about the life and times of Satan. If history science allows for Jesus historycists, it must also allow for Satan historicists.
I only want to help you with all that, while you seem to think me debating against you.

From the Christian concept of "Satan" presented in the Christian Bible, I have logically extrapolated motive, means and opportunity for him to nullify prophecy and you simply continue to deny that I have done so.

Your logical extrapolations have, sorry to say, more holes then the moon.
Mythology is full of Storys of people trying to thwart some prophecy and failing badly.
How about the slaughtering of innocents from Pharao to kill Moses, or about the slaughtering of innocents from Herod to kill Jesus ?
Or, better fitting your OP, Oedipus parents warned by Oracle prophecy of what their unreceived son would do tried to separate, (inactivity) but love or the greek god brought them back together.

For Satan, inactivity to thwart prophecy would not necessarily mean him winning.

Also we do not know how Satan interprets endtime prophecy, and how should Satan know if he interpretes it right?
If you say: "But inactivity beats all kind of prophecy!", than what about exegetics like Jehovahs Witnesses who dont necessarily requre an active Satan!
But they have instead some extra element. A secret weapon for endtimes:
The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses is the ruling council of Jehovah's Witnesses based in the group's Warwick, New York, headquarters.

According to Jehovahs Witnesses own writing, this ten are required, when endtimes arrive, to gird a sword and smyte down unbelievers! (I hope for them that everyone owns a sword! A Ninja Sword from asia shop will do!)

If Satan is a nice guy he is supposed to help unbelieving humans and save them from this government body of sword swinging fanatics, and hinder them to do gods work!

You see; there are all kinds of complications about, with an inactive Satan.

[The Nice Centurion]

Years back a christian sect (mostly academic scholars) burned a baby alive, fearing it to be the antichrist.

Wait. Can you document this occurrence?


Tcg

It would be better if I could, but I read it in a prominent newspaper, perhaps 15 years back. It happened in a southern prominent island like Haiti or Hawaii.
I believe there were 7 churchmembers grilling the baby.
Researching the internet could clear it up.

So, you are suggesting that I do your research for you to support a claim that you made?


Tcg

I found the documentation without searching. Pure Luck:

In a horrific example of religious cultism, a church leader in rural Chile cast a three-day-old baby on to a roaring bonfire after declaring the child the antichrist. The baby's 25-year-old mother allegedly approved of the sacrifice.
Thirty-six-year-old cult leader Ramon Gustavo Castillo Gaete declared that the end of the world was near as the justification behind the barbaric ritual. Chilean police have arrested four people accused of taking part in the ritual. Investigators said that the three-day-old baby girl was placed on a board with her mouth taped before being thrown into the flames. Taken to a hill in the town of Colliguay, near the Chilean port of Valparaiso, the ritual took place last November.
The baby's mother, 25-year-old Natalia Guerra, had allegedly approved the sacrifice.
Miguel Ampuero, of the Police investigative Unit, Chile's equivalent of the FBI, said: "The baby was naked. They strapped tape around her mouth to keep her from screaming. Then they placed her on a board. After calling on the spirits they threw her on the bonfire alive."
Authorities say that the 12-member sect was formed in 2005 and was led by Gaete, who remains at large.
"Everyone in this sect was a professional," Ampuero said. "We have someone who was a veterinarian and who worked as a flight attendant, we have a filmmaker, a draftsman. Everyone has a university degree."
Ringleader Gaete was last seen traveling to Peru to buy ayahuasca, a hallucinogenic brew plant that he used to control the members of the rite. The child's mother remains in custody with the three other cult members. Gaete is believed to have been the child's father.
https://www.atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=1129.0

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #267

the slaughtering of innocents from Pharao to kill Moses

Active.

the slaughtering of innocents from Herod to kill Jesus

Active.

Or, better fitting your OP, Oedipus parents warned by Oracle prophecy of what their unreceived son would do tried to separate, (inactivity) but love or the greek god brought them back together.

"Satan" couldn't refrain from activity to nullify Christian prophecy because the Greek story of Oedipus says you can't defy prophecy? Non sequitur fallacy.

Also we do not know how Satan interprets endtime prophecy, and how should Satan know if he interpretes it right?

If the prophecies are about "Satan", he would certainly recognize his own intentions in them. As you pointed out, he's not a doofus.

If you say: "But inactivity beats all kind of prophecy!", than what about exegetics like Jehovahs Witnesses who dont necessarily requre an active Satan!

It's convenient to remove "Satan" from the picture when the indications are that he doesn't actually exist, but not even in the NWT does Rev. 12:12 say, "Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, though you needn't trouble yourselves about him, because he isn't going to be active."

Hitler didn't personally put even one victim in the gas chamber. Does that mean he wasn't involved?

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #269]

We do not even know if the Second coming didnt already happen!
Here I am listing the Jesus suspects from this millennium alone:

Apollo Quiboloy (b. 1950) is the founder and leader of a Philippines-based Restorationist church, the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, The Name Above Every Name, Inc. He has made claims that he is the "Appointed Son of God".

Alan John Miller (b. 1962), more commonly known as A.J. Miller, a former Jehovah's Witness Elder and current leader of the Australia-based Divine Truth movement.[63] Miller claims to be Jesus Christ reincarnated with others in the 20th century to spread messages that he calls the "Divine Truth". He delivers these messages in seminars and various forms of media along with his current partner Mary Suzanne Luck, who identifies herself as the returned Mary Magdalene.

David Shayler (b. 1965) is a former MI5 agent and whistleblower who, in the summer of 2007, proclaimed himself to be the Messiah. He has released a series of videos on YouTube claiming to be Jesus, although he has not built up any noticeable following since his claims.

Maurice Clemmons (19722009), an American felon responsible for the 2009 murder of four police officers in Washington state, referred to himself in May 2009 as Jesus.

Oscar Ramiro Ortega-Hernandez (b. 1990). In November 2011, he fired nine shots with a Romanian Cugir SA semi-automatic rifle at the White House in Washington D.C., believing himself to be Jesus Christ sent to kill U.S. President Barack Obama, whom he believed to be the antichrist.

Todd Kincannon (b. 1981), former head of the South Carolina Republican Party, was arrested in 2018 for killing and mutilating his mother's dog. He claimed to police he was the second coming of Jesus Christ and that God had told him to do it, because "every 1,000 years there needs to be a sacrifice and blood must be spilt."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... o_be_Jesus

If one of these (And how could they ALL be wrong?) happens to be the real divine deal, then Satans supposed inactivity was for naught!