Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Regens Küchl
Scholar
Posts: 318
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:09 am

Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #1

Post by Regens Küchl »

The sacrosanct canonical four gospels have it in it that they avoid to narrate details about or have actual witnesses for their most miraculous and important point.

So we are to assume that in the dark cave Jesus body suddenly regained life and consciousness, stood up, unsheathed the shroud of turin leaving it right there as evidence of the miracle for the future vatican, with newfound superhuman powers opened his tomb careful not to wake up the roman guards and staying nearby did unknown things (garden work?) until he was mistaken for the gardener.

But like a three that falls over in the wood alone, no one witnessed that.
We are at last to assume that no human saw it or found it worth mentioning, for that is indicated by the whole new testament.

The apocryphal gospel of Peter is among the few, perhaps almost the only, (can anyone provide a list, please?) who narrates detailed important information (walking talking cross) about the actual resurrection and also has it witnessed by people.
"9. And in the night in which the Lord's day was drawing on, as the soldiers kept guard two by two in a watch, there was a great voice in the heaven; and they saw the heavens opened, and two men descend with a great light and approach the tomb. And the stone that was put at the door rolled of itself and made way in part; and the tomb was opened, and both the young men entered in.

10. When therefore those soldiers saw it, they awakened the centurion and the elders, for they too were close by keeping guard. And as they declared what things they had seen, again they saw three men come forth from the tomb, and two of them supporting one, and a cross following them. And the heads of the two reached to heaven, but the head of him who was led by them overpassed the heavens. And they heard a voice from the heavens, saying, You have preached to them that sleep. And a response was heard from the cross, Yes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter
Now It is really funny from every possible standpoint, believer, unbeliever, mythicist, historicist, whatever that we are told of not a one actual witness.

If it was a divine happening to save humanity, then why not let humans witness the most miraculous part of it ?

If it was invented than why not invent actual witnesses too ?

A Believer could say : "Because we have to believe out of faith in the resurrection!" - But this point is moot because we would also have to take it on faith even if the gospels mentioned actual witnesses.

A Mythicist could say : "Because it makes the better drama when witnesses only meet the already risen Jesus!" - But that point is moot beause we, that grew up with this fact in the gospels, are biased that way.

Questions for Debate 1) Why no actual witnesses ?

2) Why dismiss scriptures like the gospel of Peter when it includes actual witnesses and narrates important details.

3) And that is the little brother and second funny thing about the resurrection: The running gag in the gospels about old accquintances never recognicing the risen Jesus at first look.
Mary Magdalene Mistaking him for the gardener, Cleopas and another disciple walking with him to Emmaus without knowing, Apostle Thomas only recognicing him by his wounds . . . .

Why first no actual witnesses and than no recognicing? Dont this two facts together cry aloud : "Hoax"?

User avatar
The Nice Centurion
Guru
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:47 pm
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 107 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #421

Post by The Nice Centurion »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:53 pm
The Nice Centurion wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:40 am [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #414]
What if the first witness lied for some reason, and also bought two more witnesses?
If the resurrection was a lie, the tomb would have not been empty.
Or the liar emptied the tomb to make his lie more credible!
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

User avatar
Diogenes
Guru
Posts: 1371
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 12:53 pm
Location: Washington
Has thanked: 910 times
Been thanked: 1314 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #422

Post by Diogenes »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:04 am
Clownboat wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:47 pm Actually, I still find it relevant.
Therefore, where else in history are resurrections accounts taken as credible?
There is an implication here....syllogism test..

1. There are no other resurrections accounts in HISTORY, that have been taken as credible.
[emphasis applied]
This is a classic example of the 'no true Scotsman' logical fallacy.
Based on your frequent use of logical fallacies, I will assume you don't know what I'm talking about. I'll explain with an example:
Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Person B: "But my uncle Angus is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge."
Person A: "But no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
There are many other resurrection accounts. They have been provided for you. You discount all but one, the one you favor; however, your favorite resurrection myth is also not credible.
In a number of religions, a dying-and-rising god is a deity which dies and is resurrected. Reincarnation is a similar process hypothesized by other religions, which involves the same person or deity coming back to live in a different body, rather than the same one.
The resurrection of the dead is a standard eschatological belief . . . .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection

BTW, did you look up the Dunning-Kruger effect? ;)
___________________________________

Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves

— Confucius

User avatar
The Nice Centurion
Guru
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:47 pm
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 107 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #423

Post by The Nice Centurion »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:30 am A nice idea, but the short answer is, God doesn't land in a fleet of flying saucers on the White house Lawn or give press conferences. He operates through normal activities that could pass as ordinary events with a bit of coincidence and some fanciful claims that could be dismissed as tall tales. The element of free will choice has to remain so that Faith is valid. If it was just made undeniable and provable, faith would be so watered down that it wouldn't save anyone.
So Noahs Flood that encompassed the whole earth was a normal activity that can pass as ordinary event?
As well as all other Miracles of the OT and NT?
I beg to differ!

Further, endtime prophecy interestingly claims exactly a scenario like yours:
Jesus descending from heaven to New York Plaza, him reigning for 1000 years, than using a godly war machine to march into heavy military battle against Satan . . .

Besides that:
Some scribes in antiquity describing the actual resurrection or even naming witnesses to it, would not equivalence a flying saucer today landing on white house lawn and starting press conferences!
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8667
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2257 times
Been thanked: 2369 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #424

Post by Tcg »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:16 am
Further, endtime prophecy interestingly claims exactly a scenario like yours:
Jesus descending from heaven to New York Plaza, him reigning for 1000 years, than using a godly war machine to march into heavy military battle against Satan . . .
Biblical end time prophecy couldn't possibly be referring to this. The Bible reveals absolutely no knowledge of what we now call North America much less New York Plaza.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8667
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2257 times
Been thanked: 2369 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #425

Post by Tcg »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:53 pm
The Nice Centurion wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:40 am [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #414]
What if the first witness lied for some reason, and also bought two more witnesses?
If the resurrection was a lie, the tomb would have not been empty.
Two questions that should be easy to address.

1. What tomb?

2. How do you know (assuming that you answered question 1.) that it was empty?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
The Nice Centurion
Guru
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:47 pm
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 107 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #426

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Tcg wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:43 am
The Nice Centurion wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:16 am
Further, endtime prophecy interestingly claims exactly a scenario like yours:
Jesus descending from heaven to New York Plaza, him reigning for 1000 years, than using a godly war machine to march into heavy military battle against Satan . . .
Biblical end time prophecy couldn't possibly be referring to this. The Bible reveals absolutely no knowledge of what we now call North America much less New York Plaza.


Tcg
Of course! Here I was but referring to american evangelical mainstream christianity expection, which obviously found a way to read that into and out of scripture.

Good example here was the church that owned wecanknow.com and predicted Jesus landing from above on New York Plaza at a certain date in 2011.

This people spent all their money for endtimes propaganda, before waiting at New York Plaza for Jesus. Press was there to witness it too.

The Youtube videos showed clueles church ministers helplelssly crying "I dont understand that! I just dont understand!" on camera, when Jesus resisted from descending from heaven to New York Plaza in all his Glory. The Pastor ended up in setting the Date one Year later. Later a stroke got the better of him and saved him from having to set more dates.
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8667
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2257 times
Been thanked: 2369 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #427

Post by Tcg »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:56 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:43 am
The Nice Centurion wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:16 am
Further, endtime prophecy interestingly claims exactly a scenario like yours:
Jesus descending from heaven to New York Plaza, him reigning for 1000 years, than using a godly war machine to march into heavy military battle against Satan . . .
Biblical end time prophecy couldn't possibly be referring to this. The Bible reveals absolutely no knowledge of what we now call North America much less New York Plaza.


Tcg
Of course! Here I was but referring to american evangelical mainstream christianity expection, which obviously found a way to read that into and out of scripture.

Good example here was the church that owned wecanknow.com and predicted Jesus landing from above on New York Plaza at a certain date in 2011.

This people spent all their money for endtimes propaganda, before waiting at New York Plaza for Jesus. Press was there to witness it too.

The Youtube videos showed clueles church ministers helplelssly crying "I dont understand that! I just dont understand!" on camera, when Jesus resisted from descending from heaven to New York Plaza in all his Glory. The Pastor ended up in setting the Date one Year later. Later a stroke got the better of him and saved him from having to set more dates.
Ah, yes. If we are speaking of extrabiblical end time prophecy it is endless, or at least probably will be so until we humans go extinct.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
The Nice Centurion
Guru
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:47 pm
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 107 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #428

Post by The Nice Centurion »

[Replying to Tcg in post #427]
It is a central problematic that anyone can out of any message/book rape anything he wants.

To show what I mean I researched hard for finding evidence for writing a planned book which "proves the fact" that the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon were really the three immortal Nephites from the Book of Mormon.
I want to prove that they assumed identitys as normal men to pose as Joseph Smiths astonished witnesses.
To protect their secret identitys they later faked their own fall from Joseph Smiths grace and also their alleged deaths. Still they get seen by mormons. One mormon elder even encountered them TWICE!
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

TRANSPONDER
Banned
Banned
Posts: 9237
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 1080 times
Been thanked: 3981 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #429

Post by TRANSPONDER »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:16 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:30 am A nice idea, but the short answer is, God doesn't land in a fleet of flying saucers on the White house Lawn or give press conferences. He operates through normal activities that could pass as ordinary events with a bit of coincidence and some fanciful claims that could be dismissed as tall tales. The element of free will choice has to remain so that Faith is valid. If it was just made undeniable and provable, faith would be so watered down that it wouldn't save anyone.
So Noahs Flood that encompassed the whole earth was a normal activity that can pass as ordinary event?
As well as all other Miracles of the OT and NT?
I beg to differ!

Further, endtime prophecy interestingly claims exactly a scenario like yours:
Jesus descending from heaven to New York Plaza, him reigning for 1000 years, than using a godly war machine to march into heavy military battle against Satan . . .

Besides that:
Some scribes in antiquity describing the actual resurrection or even naming witnesses to it, would not equivalence a flying saucer today landing on white house lawn and starting press conferences!
No. I recall that I referrdd to the argument that the flood was local (e.g the Black sea flood) because that functions as validated evidence for what could have been the bsis of the Noah story. The problem is that, if so, it would totally nullify the Biblical story of what it was and why it was. As to the other 'miracles' I'll leave it to the Bible believers to suggest natural explanations for them. I'll consider them as intended miracle -stories and thus, first line explanation, invented.

The point about a flying visit and press conference by God is to point up how (for instance) God could make it quite clear He existed, if he wanted to. The credibility of the resurrection -story is another argument altogether. Though of course it's a point that the resurrection could have been done where everyone could see it.

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8667
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2257 times
Been thanked: 2369 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #430

Post by Tcg »

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #428]

I have no idea what this has to do with the fact that there were no reported witnesses for the resurrection. Neither do I understand how it addresses my point.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

Post Reply