Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

[Diogenes]

In the post "Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?" posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&p=1073778
I wrote:

When they finally "get it" and realize most of them are Christians mainly because of childhood indoctrination and step out of the bondage of fantasy they were taught at an early age, then they are embarrassed or angry or both. ... and it has little to do with the reasons stated in post #1.

This suggests the current topic, 'Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children.'

In support of this proposition I quote from the Southern Nazarene University website,
http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/ages.htm where they claim 85% of Christians have their conversion experience ("are saved") at ages 4 to 14 and only 4% after the age of 30.

Parenthetically I note the human brain does not fully develop until about age 25.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #30]

I agree, this can be tricky, but I think we as a society should try and do our best based on the latest knowledge we have. There will be disagreements in the areas of morals and ethics and this is why children should be equipped to think for themselves. We should teach them how to learn, how to question, and think critically.

Want to teach your child about your religion? No problem, but don't do it like "<insert favorite god concept> exits! We must pray to it because <insert favorite holy text> says so and I say so!".

Is it a parents right to force their religious beliefs on their children? Yes. Is it right to do this? No.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #30]

I agree, this can be tricky, but I think we as a society should try and do our best based on the latest knowledge we have. There will be disagreements in the areas of morals and ethics and this is why children should be equipped to think for themselves. We should teach them how to learn, how to question, and think critically.

Want to teach your child about your religion? No problem, but don't do it like "<insert favorite god concept> exits! We must pray to it because <insert favorite holy text> says so and I say so!".

Is it a parents right to force their religious beliefs on their children? Yes. Is it right to do this? No.

There will be debate about this, all the time there is a political struggle going on (in the USA at any rate - in Europe it is less so) whether politics will be secular or theocratic. My argument is that science has earned the credit for getting it right, through experiment and research; and religion has significantly lost ground and relies on faith -based denial of science for its' case. I also see the next significant step for humanity (assuming there is one) as recognising the importance of critical thinking as a curriculum subject. So far as I know this fundamentally vital thinking tool has never ever been taught in pre college school as a curriculum subject ever, anywhere. Giving the authorities the benefit of doubt I will suppose it's because they are politicians, and politics has always been about Rhetoric, not about critical thinking.

[historia]

YOUR claim was that they were "indoctrinated" by atheists or atheism.

More specifically, bjs' claim was this:

Just as most Christians are Christians mainly because of childhood indoctrination, most atheists are atheists mainly because of childhood indoctrination. (Obviously I don’t mean literal indoctrination in either case. Rather, I use the term “indoctrination” in the way that this thread uses it to refer to what most people call “parenting.”)

The parenthetical note here is key, as it explains that by "indoctrination" bjs just means "parenting." The article he cited certainly substantiates his claim that people mainly become atheists due to parenting.

No one is going around trying to convince children to be atheists; they are simply not trying to convince them to believe in religion.

I appreciate the fact that there is an inherent asymmetry between practicing a religion and not practicing one. But I think this statement is too sweeping.

I think it's reasonable to conclude that atheist parents are passing onto their children their opinions regarding religion. Even if some don't intend to, children growing up in secular households pick up on the fact that their family chooses not to practice a religion when others in society do, and often absorb that negative value judgement regarding religion. In that way, at least some atheist parents are trying to convince their children to be atheists.

[historia]

It's not about education. It's all about instilling beliefs that conform with those held by the parents. Those beliefs are essentially unsupported opinions and have little to do with conveying factual knowledge and understanding of the world that we expect to convey through general education.

You mean like the belief that all people should have equal moral standing under the law?

[JehovahsWitness]

It may be a parents right to instill beliefs, but clearly some beliefs are based on sound observation and others are based on nothing more than fantasy.

And it is not for anyone but the parent to decide which is which.

Wrong. If a belief is incorrect, that's just a fact.

Yes, and every individual has the right to decide for themselves which beliefs they hold to be correct and which beliefs they have decided are ... incorrect. If they become parents they have the right (and the duty, unless they are negligent ) to teach their children which is which.

Some atheists and infidel I have personally come accross should be careful their own intolerance for alternative worldviews do not spill over into calls for the censorship of religious instruction in the home; a basic human right.

Look, I have no issue with religious parents explaining their religion to their children and teaching them about their customs.

Good. Most religions hold there is a spiritual world, a supreme Creator and rebel demons and that our eternal life requires that we worship the former and avoid being influences by the latter. If a parent believes this to be true they have every right to try and instill those same beliefs in their children.

In other words they do not need to be "neutral", they need to do their utmost to convinced their children that what they (the parent) believes is true is, in fact ... true. Instilling these beliefs in your child is a chief religious custom, it certainly is the biblical view.



JW


Should educators try and influence young minds?
viewtopic.php?p=1080890#p1080890

Should parents actively try and instill their own beliefs and values in their children?
viewtopic.php?p=1080969#p1080969

[Difflugia]

Yes, and every individual has the right to decide for themselves which beliefs they hold to be correct and which beliefs they have decided are ... incorrect. If they become parents they have the right (and the duty, unless they are negligent ) to teach their children which is which.

Just out of curiosity, do you think that educational neglect is a thing? Not whether you agree with any particular defintion, but do you think that children have some sort of right to an education that should be socially or legally upheld? I'm trying to figure out if you're an educational libertarian or if you're just arguing for a different set of standards.

Some atheists and infidel I have personally come accross should be careful their own intolerance for alternative worldviews do not spill over into calls for the censorship of religious instruction in the home;

I think it's extraordinarily telling that you are attempting to recast concern for a child's education as religious intolerance.

a basic human right.

You recently used the phrase "basic human rights" in another comment . Did you mean the same thing there as you do here? Like, would one of the differences between good slavery and bad slavery be whether enslaved parents were allowed to teach their children that math and science are tools of the Devil?

[benchwarmer]

It may be a parents right to instill beliefs, but clearly some beliefs are based on sound observation and others are based on nothing more than fantasy.

And it is not for anyone but the parent to decide which is which.

Wrong. If a belief is incorrect, that's just a fact.

Yes, and every individual has the right to decide for themselves which beliefs they hold to be correct and which beliefs they have decided are ... incorrect. If they become parents they have the right (and the duty, unless they are negligent ) to teach their children which is which.

So if you believe the earth is flat, regardless of the truth value of that, you think it's fine and dandy for parents to 'teach' their children the earth is flat? It sounds like you want to be the arbiter of truth for your child rather than helping them discover for themselves what's really true.

It's fine to tell your children what you believe, but if you are simply expecting them to buy it, that doesn't fly in my book. That's indoctrination, plain and simple. If you rather explain your beliefs and show them how to verify those beliefs themselves then great. Clearly the 'earth is flat' belief won't pass muster for long though if the child is equipped to question and explore on their own.

Some atheists and infidel I have personally come accross should be careful their own intolerance for alternative worldviews do not spill over into calls for the censorship of religious instruction in the home; a basic human right.

I'm all for religious instruction. i.e. learning about ALL the world religions, what they have in common, how the stand up to modern knowledge, their customs, ideas, etc. Bring it on. I'm guessing that is not what you mean though. Children should have access to all knowledge and given the tools to discern reality from fantasy. Simply 'teaching' them that any given god concept is real with no verifiable evidence should be a red flag, but clearly that's what you seem to want.

Look, I have no issue with religious parents explaining their religion to their children and teaching them about their customs.

Good. Most religions hold there is a spiritual world, a supreme Creator and rebel demons and that our eternal life requires that we worship the former and avoid being influences by the latter. If a parent believes this to be true they have every right to try and instill those same beliefs in their children.

Yes, they do have the right. However, the rest of us have the right to point out this is not good parenting. Scaring children with stories of demons and eternal damnation is hardly 'good' parenting when the facts of those things are based on nothing but 'faith' and holy texts.

I'm not trying to take away your rights, simply pointing out the damage that has to be undone at some point depending on the instilled beliefs. One persons 'truth' is clearly not always the actual truth. In other words, I'm sure you would agree that terrorists instilling the belief that JWs should be eradicated is probably bad parenting. It is their right to do that though, sad as it may be.

[brunumb]

It's not about education. It's all about instilling beliefs that conform with those held by the parents. Those beliefs are essentially unsupported opinions and have little to do with conveying factual knowledge and understanding of the world that we expect to convey through general education.

You mean like the belief that all people should have equal moral standing under the law?

That is not uniquely religious.

[brunumb]

Scaring children with stories of demons and eternal damnation is hardly 'good' parenting when the facts of those things are based on nothing but 'faith' and holy texts.

Is it good parenting to cause emotional pain and suffering when children are shunned or undergo disfellowshipping for reaching the conclusion that the beliefs they were inculcated with are actually wrong? That sounds less like teaching and more like "Believe, or else".

[Diogenes]

I think it's reasonable to conclude that atheist parents are passing onto their children their opinions regarding religion. Even if some don't intend to, children growing up in secular households pick up on the fact that their family chooses not to practice a religion when others in society do, and often absorb that negative value judgement regarding religion. In that way, at least some atheist parents are trying to convince their children to be atheists.

I think that, overall, this is a fair statement, particularly when you use the wise qualifier "some."

Most who don't believe in gods do not use the word "atheist." They simply are not believers.

In the United States, only 5% of the population did not have a belief in a god and out of that small group only 24% self-identified as "atheist", while 15% self-identified as "agnostic" and 35% self-identified as "nothing in particular."

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Demographics_of_atheism

The word 'indoctrinate' probably encompasses a wide and flexible range from merely providing selected information, to attempts at mind control or "brain washing." I have no quarrel with parents providing children with religious material and sharing their own religious beliefs. Where it becomes problematic is when the pressure is upped to the point the child of tender years feels they have no choice, or may not even be conscious of the idea they have no choice.

The area that I think is abusive and harmful is when parents teach their children things that are factually incorrect, such as the age of the planet or univerise, or that there is no such thing as evolution, or that the Earth is flat. This sets up the child to be ridiculed or under perform in school.

At the very least the parents, after sharing their minority [I'd say "absurd"] views, they have a duty to their children to say, "This is what we believe. Most scientists disagree with us and you should study and come to your own conclusions."