Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children

[Diogenes]

In the post "Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?" posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&p=1073778
I wrote:

When they finally "get it" and realize most of them are Christians mainly because of childhood indoctrination and step out of the bondage of fantasy they were taught at an early age, then they are embarrassed or angry or both. ... and it has little to do with the reasons stated in post #1.

This suggests the current topic, 'Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children.'

In support of this proposition I quote from the Southern Nazarene University website,
http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/ages.htm where they claim 85% of Christians have their conversion experience ("are saved") at ages 4 to 14 and only 4% after the age of 30.

Parenthetically I note the human brain does not fully develop until about age 25.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/

[JoeyKnothead]

I wonder why leaving Christianity accompanies anger and embarrassment, while leaving atheism accompanies joy and peace.

I was pretty angry and embarrassed to find out I was duped into Santa worship.

Leaving asantaism for the comfort of Santaism'd sure be joy and peace to this troubled mind.

But don't it beat all, I done growed up.

[JehovahsWitness]

In the post "Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?" posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&p=1073778
I wrote:

When they finally "get it" and realize most of them are Christians mainly because of childhood indoctrination and step out of the bondage of fantasy they were taught at an early age, then they are embarrassed or angry or both. ... and it has little to do with the reasons stated in post #1.

This suggests the current topic, 'Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children.'

In support of this proposition I quote from the Southern Nazarene University website,
http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/ages.htm where they claim 85% of Christians have their conversion experience ("are saved") at ages 4 to 14 and only 4% after the age of 30.

Parenthetically I note the human brain does not fully develop until about age 25.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/

One man's indoctrination is another man's education

It's only called "Indoctrination" when one doesnt agree. As for the numbers. ..So? So what?! Truth is not numerically quantifiable. Only 8 people are reported to have survived the flood, so the God of the bible is evidently not seeking a majority vote; why then should those that hold to that faith see any significance in not being a majority.

As for turning away from the religion of ones youth, that should be expected; as Paul wrote "Faith is not a possession of all men [people]" . Christianity is not inherited, each individual whether raised by Christian parents or not should come to Jesus of their own free will or not at all. Religions that retain hear 100% membership can be accused of doing so through cohersion, (in radical Muslim states where changing religion means certain death, lo and behold they have (at least officially), 100 retention rates!) does this indicate theological truth?

As one of Jehovahs Witnesses I have no pony in this race (the majority of those in our faith are not raised in it) but even if this were not the case it , I fail to see any significance in the fact that most leave when they are adults and free to do so.

Parenthetically I note the human brain does not fully develop until about age 25.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/

Parenthetically I note many atheists I have spoken to say they left the faith of their youth, under the age of 25.

[TRANSPONDER]

I wonder why leaving Christianity accompanies anger and embarrassment, while leaving atheism accompanies joy and peace.

I was pretty angry and embarrassed to find out I was duped into Santa worship.

Leaving asantaism for the comfort of Santaism'd sure be joy and peace to this troubled mind.

But don't it beat all, I done growed up.

Yes. It is one of the things atheists Don't Say because Atheist -bashers would Use It, but we are angry; angry at the institutionalised mind control and indoctrination. We saw the denial posted here, but we all know it is very real. It works in many dogmas, irreligious as well as religious, and the control of all information and education is well understood, and it is very tempting for Authorities, whether at national, institutional or cult -leader level to make sure their sheep never get to hear the other side. And the key is the buy -in. People have to feel that an attack on the Institution is a personal attack on themselves.

And they of course think that Rationality and critical thinking (and science) works that way, too. They naturally think that science and rational thinking is a Dogma and a religion, backed up by the Holy textbooks of science and Darwinism.

I understand why they think atheism and science is a religion and to be rejected because it is one of the Wrong religions. We know that religions are flawed from the get go because they are based on their Holy Book (1). They reject all the other Holy Books because that's what they were taught. Of course they think that atheism and science works the same way. Yet they (presumably) watch all the Detective shows on TV and they know how reasoning and evidence works. That's science. That's Rationality. Use the method to follow the clues.

"I don't know how you're going to explain this sir, but I found a bullet from the murder weapon in this plant - pot.'

'Easy, the devil put it there to incriminate me.'

'You don't expect that to stand up in court, sir!'

'It will if I accuse my accusers of unbelief'.

We don't use science -skepticism for anything else, but it's used to dismiss doubts and questions, about religion, and linking it with patriotism, and family values is all part of making it national doctrine, as well as personal.

I've said before that the debate of the subject is long done, and it's the mindset of Dogma that isn't well understood. Especially the well known projection - accusing the other side of thinking or doing what the person is thinking and doing. It's almost an Axiom, but the accusation of the Dogmatic will reveal how they are thinking.

(1) non religious theism is another matter.

[tam]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

Peace to you.

'Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children.'

Maybe, maybe not. Though I'm not sure there is enough evidence for you to use the word 'indoctrinate' over the word 'taught' when referring to 'most'. So again... maybe, maybe not.

(Quick note: just because someone claims to be Christian does not mean they are Christian, but I assume you are just going by those who make the claim.)

But what is your point?

If your point is to suggest that people are only "Christian" because they were indoctrinated as children, then what about the few who do not meet those criteria? Including those who are disciples of Christ and/or Christian because they were drawn by God to His Son, called (including being called out) and chosen?

Children are born atheists. They are not born believing in God. That has to be taught.

This is an unsupported claim.

As far back as I can remember, I believed/sensed/felt someone with me... even if I might not have known how to vocalize that, or what to call that. But we do not have to rely upon personal experience to deal with this claim. We can reasonably conclude that believing in God is not something that has to be taught (I assume you mean 'taught by men, parents, society')... simply by the fact that there is belief in God in the world. If belief in God HAD to be taught, then who taught the first people to believe in God?


**

None of those mind-control techniques that you posted apply to me, btw. No doubt some/many sects use them (on children and/or on adults), but from my childhood, my Lord is the One who taught me to question their claims. That is the opposite of indoctrination (assuming you are using something similar to the following as a definition of indoctrinate: teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.)


Also, a person can break free, or be set free, from indoctrination (such as from any particular sect/denomination) and/or erroneous childhood teaching WITHOUT giving up their faith in Christ and God, and/or without becoming an atheist.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[bjs1]

I had not originally supported the claim because it is so well known that I am surprised you bothered to question it. The most recent in a long line of studies that I am aware of was the 2021 study published in Social Psychological and Personality Science.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/1 ... 0621994001

The study found that:
“Of key predictors of religious disbelief, witnessing fewer credible cultural cues of religious commitment was the most potent, β = .28, followed distantly by reflective cognitive style, β = .13, and less advanced mentalizing, β = .05. Low cultural exposure predicted about 90% higher odds of atheism than did peak cognitive reflection, and cognitive reflection only predicted disbelief among those relatively low in cultural exposure to religion.”

Put simply, being raised by non-religious parents is far and away the most importance influence in children growing up to be non-religious. The idea that a person later in life decides that Christianity (or any other religion) is false happens 90% less often, and even then almost always comes into play only when that person had “relatively low cultural exposure to religion” (that is, when the person is raised by parents who call themselves Christians but live like non-Christians).

Since the article you cited does not actually support your assertion, you 'summarized' it to fit your false claim.
"Witnessing fewer credible cultural cues of religious commitment" does not equate to "atheist indoctrination." It simply means they were exposed to fewer "religious cues." In other words, they received less religious information or indoctrination.
No one is going around trying to convince children to be atheists; they are simply not trying to convince them to believe in religion.

YOUR claim was that they were "indoctrinated" by atheists or atheism. You have yet to show anything about "atheist indoctrination." This is not surprising because IT DOES NOT EXIST. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods.

The study you cite actually substantiates what I wrote; that people become religious (at least 85% of the time) only because they are taught to be so at an early, impressionable age. Atheism results from a LACK of religious indoctrination. Non belief in fairies, gods, goblins, demons, angels and other supernatural claptrap is the default position. No one is taught to not believe in nonsense; rather one has to be taught to believe in it. It's like racism or any other prejudice. It has to be taught.

I just want to make sure I understand your position.

Are you saying: When Christians raise their children to be Christians that is indoctrination. When atheists raise their children to be atheists that is not indoctrination.


A second question: You do understand that neither Christian nor atheist parents are actually indoctrinating their children, right? While the word “indoctrinate” originally meant to teach, for the past 200 years it has meant to force ideas or opinions on people which they are not allowed to question. I’m sure there are some parents (Christian and atheist alike) who raise their children that way, but this does not accurately reflect the teachings of any major religious group in America today.

[JoeyKnothead]

If only for me, I don't much fuss on how one became a Christian, but how can otherwise intelligent folks fall for it.

That said, there's a not so subtle indoctrination game at play in our laws and courts, and all such as that.

For just one example, as part of one of my probations, when I go every month to see that particular judge, I'm asked to stand and recite the pledge of allegiance, to the ornamental piece of fabric, and to the republic, under God.

Let's make no mistake about this, that's as much a religious oath as a national'n. Fortunately it doesn't look untoward that I wear my mask, so they can't see I don't even mouth the original oath. To clarify that, I made me an oath when I joined the Army. I find it offensive I'd ever be expected to do it again. Oh, I stand and put my hand over my heart - cause unless ya do, ya don't love Murica!

[JehovahsWitness]

If only for me, I don't much fuss on how one became a Christian, but how can otherwise intelligent folks fall for it.

That said, there's a not so subtle indoctrination game at play in our laws and courts, and all such as that.

For just one example, as part of one of my probations, when I go every month to see that particular judge, I'm asked to stand and recite the pledge of allegiance, to the ornamental piece of fabric, and to the republic, under God.

Let's make no mistake about this, that's as much a religious oath as a national'n. Fortunately it doesn't look untoward that I wear my mask, so they can't see I don't even mouth the original oath. To clarify that, I made me an oath when I joined the Army. I find it offensive I'd ever be expected to do it again. Oh, I stand and put my hand over my heart - cause unless ya do, ya don't love Murica!

You have recite the pledge of allegiance in court? I am confused. Not least because Jehovahs Witnesses Fought long and hard so we would not be forced to do so.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Vi ... ._Barnette

[JoeyKnothead]

If only for me, I don't much fuss on how one became a Christian, but how can otherwise intelligent folks fall for it.

That said, there's a not so subtle indoctrination game at play in our laws and courts, and all such as that.

For just one example, as part of one of my probations, when I go every month to see that particular judge, I'm asked to stand and recite the pledge of allegiance, to the ornamental piece of fabric, and to the republic, under God.

Let's make no mistake about this, that's as much a religious oath as a national'n. Fortunately it doesn't look untoward that I wear my mask, so they can't see I don't even mouth the original oath. To clarify that, I made me an oath when I joined the Army. I find it offensive I'd ever be expected to do it again. Oh, I stand and put my hand over my heart - cause unless ya do, ya don't love Murica!

You have recite the pledge of allegiance in court? I am confused. Not least because Jehovahs Witnesses Fought long and hard so we would not be forced to do so.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Vi ... ._Barnette

I'm sure I could get out of it if I pushed the issue, but don't wanna rock the boat.

And I'm obliged to the JWs for their efforts in this regard.

That said, the pledge is still often recited in schools, even if some kids remains seated.

[JehovahsWitness]

If only for me, I don't much fuss on how one became a Christian, but how can otherwise intelligent folks fall for it.

That said, there's a not so subtle indoctrination game at play in our laws and courts, and all such as that.

For just one example, as part of one of my probations, when I go every month to see that particular judge, I'm asked to stand and recite the pledge of allegiance, to the ornamental piece of fabric, and to the republic, under God.

Let's make no mistake about this, that's as much a religious oath as a national'n. Fortunately it doesn't look untoward that I wear my mask, so they can't see I don't even mouth the original oath. To clarify that, I made me an oath when I joined the Army. I find it offensive I'd ever be expected to do it again. Oh, I stand and put my hand over my heart - cause unless ya do, ya don't love Murica!

You have recite the pledge of allegiance in court? I am confused. Not least because Jehovahs Witnesses Fought long and hard so we would not be forced to do so.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Vi ... ._Barnette

I'm sure I could get out of it if I pushed the issue, but don't wanna rock the boat.

And I'm obliged to the JWs for their efforts in this regard.

That said, the pledge is still often recited in schools, even if some kids remains seated.

O.. okay'I see. I am not American so I don't really know what happens on a day to day basis in your country.

Thanks

JW

[Diogenes]

In the post "Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?" posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&p=1073778
I wrote:

When they finally "get it" and realize most of them are Christians mainly because of childhood indoctrination and step out of the bondage of fantasy they were taught at an early age, then they are embarrassed or angry or both. ... and it has little to do with the reasons stated in post #1.

This suggests the current topic, 'Most Christians are "Christian" Because they were Indoctrinated as Children.'

In support of this proposition I quote from the Southern Nazarene University website,
http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/ages.htm where they claim 85% of Christians have their conversion experience ("are saved") at ages 4 to 14 and only 4% after the age of 30.

Parenthetically I note the human brain does not fully develop until about age 25.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/

One man's indoctrination is another man's education

It's only called "Indoctrination" when one doesnt agree. As for the numbers. ..So? So what?! Truth is not numerically quantifiable. Only 8 people are reported to have survived the flood, so the God of the bible is evidently not seeking a majority vote....
....
Parenthetically I note many atheists I have spoken to say they left the faith of their youth, under the age of 25.

It's sad when one has to use myths to try to prove a point, but I agree that no god would give a hoot about some human 'majority view. Back to indoctrination, which is the issue here. The plain fact is that children are susceptible to this sort of thing. Essentially (even if you're not willing to call it 'indoctrination') church teaching of children is coercive. The kids essentially have little choice. They hear one side. They love their parents and want to please. They want to belong. They feel the pressure from their peers and church leaders. It's the rare child who has the strength of will to resist the onslaught.

Also, I am not surprised to hear you know atheists who left the faith by age 25. That is my very point. Once their brain matures and they have some freedom from their home/church life, reality sinks in. I expect that more than half the non believers on this forum were raised Christian and many of them slowly and painfully dropped those beliefs as young adults when they were no longer emotionally captive.