The meaning of evidence

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Sherlock Holmes

The meaning of evidence

Post #1

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

This thread is to discuss the meaning of the term "evidence" particularly with respect to claims made by evolution advocates.

The reason I started this thread is that I often see - what I regard as - a conflation of consistent with and evidence for. If we are to make reasonable inferences and maintain objectivity and avoid making assumption unwittingly then the more precisely we define "evidence" the better I think.

The biggest risk here is to imply that some observation P is evidence for X and only X, rather than evidence for X and Y or Z. Unless we are on our guard we can informally exclude reasonable possibilities Y and Z and so on. Now the observation P might well be evidence for X and only X, but unless that is soundly established we simply can't assume that.

If we mistakenly regard P as evidence for X and only X then we fall into the trap of believing that P can only be observed if X was the cause.

This is exemplified by an analogy I recently put together that I think warrants its own thread, so here it is:


Consider this jigsaw

Image


None of the circles overlap, we can see this when we can see the totality of the jigsaw. But if we already believed for some reason or other, that they must overlap and we only had twenty random pieces and never see the rest, we could make up a jigsaw (theory) where we "fill in the blanks" so to speak and "show" that we sometimes have overlapping circles.

We'd be absolutely right too in saying the twenty pieces were consistent with an image that has overlapping circles, but we'd be dead wrong to say the twenty pieces are evidence of overlapping circles, because as we know, none of the circles actually do overlap.

So do you agree or not, there's a difference between observations that are evidence for some hypothesis vs consistent with some hypothesis and we should always be careful and make this distinction clear in our arguments?

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #21

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:39 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:33 pm It seems you agree anyway, the fossil record alone is not evidence for evolution, only consistent with evolution.
No, I absolutely do not agree. This is what I stated, the fossil record is not evidence for evolution BECAUSE it is consistent with evolution. I was referencing the reason. The fossil record is evidence for evolution because it is fitness with evolution's prediction.
The fossil record is everywhere discontinuous, how can you use that to insist that the process that led to the fossils was continuous?

The fossil record is consistent with a continuous process but equally consistent with a discontinuous process; in the same way the twenty jigsaw pieces is consistent with an overlapping model and a non overlapping model, you simply cannot prove from the samples which model is correct.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #22

Post by Jose Fly »

The Barbarian wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:19 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:01 am
Jose Fly wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 1:46 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:43 am this reminds me of the fragmentary and discontinuous nature of world's fossil record, in that it doesn't seem to have a single example of gradual evolutionary change, very much like the jigsaw analogy I think.
Yes there is.

EVOLUTION AT SEA COMPLETE FOSSIL RECORD FROM THE OCEAN UPHOLDS DARWIN'S GRADUALISM THEORIES

Tony Arnold and Bill Parker compiled what may be the largest, most complete set of data on the evolutionary history of any group of organisms, marine or otherwise. The two scientists amassed something that their land-based colleagues only dreamed about: An intact fossil record with no missing links.

"It's all here--a virtually complete evolutionary record," says Arnold. "There are other good examples, but this is by far the best. We're seeing the whole picture of how this group of organisms has changed throughout most of its existence on Earth."...

...Darwin termed the process gradualism, a theory that invokes the slow accumulation of small evolutionary changes over a large period of time, as a result of the pressures of natural selection. What Arnold and Parker found is almost a textbook example of gradualism at work....

...But in the near-perfect record exhibited by the forams studied at FSU, the highly touted Eldredge-Gould theory of punctuated equilibrium apparently doesn't work. The record reveals a robust, highly branched evolutionary tree, complete with Darwin's predicted "dead ends"--varieties that lead nowhere--and a profusion of variability in sizes and body shapes. Transitional forms between species are readily apparent, making it relatively easy to track ancestor species to their descendents. In short, the finding upholds Darwin's lifelong conviction that "nature does not proceed in leaps," but rather is a system prepetually unfolding in extreme slow motion.
Or....

Parallel gradualistic evolution of Ordovician trilobites
I retract any bit of my previous comment that doesn't fit with this new to me data.
Gould himself cites forams, horses, and ammonites as examples of gradual evolution in the fossil record. Gould and Eldredge wrote that punctuated equilibrium is the norm, not the exclusive mode of evolution.
The fascinating part about the foram record is how it shows both gradualism and punctuated equilibrium modes of speciation.
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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #23

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:53 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:39 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:33 pm It seems you agree anyway, the fossil record alone is not evidence for evolution, only consistent with evolution.
No, I absolutely do not agree. This is what I stated, the fossil record is not evidence for evolution BECAUSE it is consistent with evolution. I was referencing the reason. The fossil record is evidence for evolution because it is fitness with evolution's prediction.
The fossil record is everywhere discontinuous, how can you use that to insist that the process that led to the fossils was continuous?

The fossil record is consistent with a continuous process but equally consistent with a discontinuous process; in the same way the twenty jigsaw pieces is consistent with an overlapping model and a non overlapping model, you simply cannot prove from the samples which model is correct.
Wow.....I'm at a loss. This is where I start to question why I bother to do this. Part of me thinks I may be picking on people who are just doing the best they can, which I don't believe is ethical.

Either way.....once again Morton's Demon comes to mind.
Last edited by Jose Fly on Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #24

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:58 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:53 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:39 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:33 pm It seems you agree anyway, the fossil record alone is not evidence for evolution, only consistent with evolution.
No, I absolutely do not agree. This is what I stated, the fossil record is not evidence for evolution BECAUSE it is consistent with evolution. I was referencing the reason. The fossil record is evidence for evolution because it is fitness with evolution's prediction.
The fossil record is everywhere discontinuous, how can you use that to insist that the process that led to the fossils was continuous?

The fossil record is consistent with a continuous process but equally consistent with a discontinuous process; in the same way the twenty jigsaw pieces is consistent with an overlapping model and a non overlapping model, you simply cannot prove from the samples which model is correct.
Wow.....I'm at a loss. This is where I start to question why I bother to do this. Part of me thinks I'm just picking on people who struggle with mental health issues, which I don't believe is ethical.

Either way.....once again Morton's Demon comes to mind.
Are you suggesting I am struggling with mental illness and that you are picking on me because of that Jose?

Here's a few forum rules I read about this:

1. Personal attacks of any sort are not allowed. Comments about any person that are negative, condescending, frivolous or indicate in any way a lack of respect are not allowed.
7. Do not post frivolous, flame bait, or inflammatory messages.
20. In general, all members are to be civil and respectful.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #25

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:32 pm Are you suggesting I am struggling with mental illness and that you are picking on me because of that Jose?
No. I'm saying I'm struggling to understand your behavior. I've only seen this level of denialism a handful of times before...where someone says something like "X doesn't exist", they're shown examples of the existence of X, they completely ignore it, wait a bit, and then repeat "X doesn't exist" as if no one had ever shown them a thing.

Each time I see that I'm completely baffled by it. I know it's basically an example of Morton's Demon at work, but I just don't understand how some folks can be so oblivious to it.

It reminds me of the evangelical Christians who keep sending money to televangelists, even after they've been busted for fraud. I really...just...don't...get....it.

And I doubt I ever will.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #26

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:26 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:32 pm Are you suggesting I am struggling with mental illness and that you are picking on me because of that Jose?
No. I'm saying I'm struggling to understand your behavior. I've only seen this level of denialism a handful of times before...where someone says something like "X doesn't exist", they're shown examples of the existence of X, they completely ignore it, wait a bit, and then repeat "X doesn't exist" as if no one had ever shown them a thing.

Each time I see that I'm completely baffled by it. I know it's basically an example of Morton's Demon at work, but I just don't understand how some folks can be so oblivious to it.

It reminds me of the evangelical Christians who keep sending money to televangelists, even after they've been busted for fraud. I really...just...don't...get....it.

And I doubt I ever will.
No, this is very easy to explain. I disagree with you and you do not know how to interpret this other than me having a mental illness or something, that's all it is.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #27

Post by Tcg »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:32 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:58 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:53 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:39 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:33 pm It seems you agree anyway, the fossil record alone is not evidence for evolution, only consistent with evolution.
No, I absolutely do not agree. This is what I stated, the fossil record is not evidence for evolution BECAUSE it is consistent with evolution. I was referencing the reason. The fossil record is evidence for evolution because it is fitness with evolution's prediction.
The fossil record is everywhere discontinuous, how can you use that to insist that the process that led to the fossils was continuous?

The fossil record is consistent with a continuous process but equally consistent with a discontinuous process; in the same way the twenty jigsaw pieces is consistent with an overlapping model and a non overlapping model, you simply cannot prove from the samples which model is correct.
Wow.....I'm at a loss. This is where I start to question why I bother to do this. Part of me thinks I'm just picking on people who struggle with mental health issues, which I don't believe is ethical.

Either way.....once again Morton's Demon comes to mind.
Are you suggesting I am struggling with mental illness and that you are picking on me because of that Jose?

Here's a few forum rules I read about this:

1. Personal attacks of any sort are not allowed. Comments about any person that are negative, condescending, frivolous or indicate in any way a lack of respect are not allowed.
7. Do not post frivolous, flame bait, or inflammatory messages.
20. In general, all members are to be civil and respectful.
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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #28

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:30 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:26 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:32 pm Are you suggesting I am struggling with mental illness and that you are picking on me because of that Jose?
No. I'm saying I'm struggling to understand your behavior. I've only seen this level of denialism a handful of times before...where someone says something like "X doesn't exist", they're shown examples of the existence of X, they completely ignore it, wait a bit, and then repeat "X doesn't exist" as if no one had ever shown them a thing.

Each time I see that I'm completely baffled by it. I know it's basically an example of Morton's Demon at work, but I just don't understand how some folks can be so oblivious to it.

It reminds me of the evangelical Christians who keep sending money to televangelists, even after they've been busted for fraud. I really...just...don't...get....it.

And I doubt I ever will.
No, this is very easy to explain. I disagree with you and you do not know how to interpret this other than me having a mental illness or something, that's all it is.
Except, as you like to sometimes point out, this is a debate forum.

Is your idea of "debate" actually......?

"X doesn't exist."

Here are examples of X.

"I disagree with you."

FYI, I've been on formal debate teams, and your sort of response is scored as a concession on your part and a win for me.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #29

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:46 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:30 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:26 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:32 pm Are you suggesting I am struggling with mental illness and that you are picking on me because of that Jose?
No. I'm saying I'm struggling to understand your behavior. I've only seen this level of denialism a handful of times before...where someone says something like "X doesn't exist", they're shown examples of the existence of X, they completely ignore it, wait a bit, and then repeat "X doesn't exist" as if no one had ever shown them a thing.

Each time I see that I'm completely baffled by it. I know it's basically an example of Morton's Demon at work, but I just don't understand how some folks can be so oblivious to it.

It reminds me of the evangelical Christians who keep sending money to televangelists, even after they've been busted for fraud. I really...just...don't...get....it.

And I doubt I ever will.
No, this is very easy to explain. I disagree with you and you do not know how to interpret this other than me having a mental illness or something, that's all it is.
Except, as you like to sometimes point out, this is a debate forum.

Is your idea of "debate" actually......?

"X doesn't exist."

Here are examples of X.

"I disagree with you."

FYI, I've been on formal debate teams, and your sort of response is scored as a concession on your part and a win for me.
No, my idea of a debate is to actually quote what my opponent said not paraphrase.

At no point have we had a conversation that is accurately represented by what you wrote above, this is a strawman, yet another strawman argument.
Last edited by Sherlock Holmes on Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #30

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:55 pm No, my idea of a debate is to actually quote what my opponent said not paraphrase.
What did I mischaracterize? Be specific.
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