Evolution v Creationism: A Dead Issue

[Jose Fly]

As someone who spent a lot of time on the evolution v creationism battles over the last 20 years, I've noticed that in the last 5 years or so the issue seems to have largely gone off the radar. In the message boards that are still around (both Christian and secular) it's barely debated, if at all. Websites specifically dedicated to countering creationist talking points such as talkorigins and pandasthumb have gone silent, seemingly because there just isn't much to talk about.

Surveys have shown that younger Americans accept the reality of evolution at pretty much the same rate as the rest of the developed world. Thanks to national focus on science education by organizations like the NCSE, evolution is more widely taught than ever, even in the deep south. The Discovery Institute (the main "intelligent design" organization) stopped advocating for ID creationism to be taught in schools years ago, and they closed their alleged "research arm" last year.

On the science front, creationism remains as it has for over a century....100% scientifically irrelevant.

So for all practical intents and purposes, this debate is over. There isn't any sort of public debate over teaching creationism, nor is there any real debate about whether evolution should be taught. For sure there's still work to do in some parts of the country (mostly the south and interior west) where even though evolution is officially required, teachers don't teach it either because it's "too controversial" or they don't believe it themselves, but big picture-wise, "evolution v creationism" is in about the same state as "spherical v flat earth"....nothing more than something a handful of people argue about on the internet, but outside of that has little to no significance. And even on that front it's kinda dead....most forums where it's openly debated have a very skewed ratio where there's like 10 "evolutionists" for every 1 creationist.

Glad to see it!

[Sherlock Holmes]

There are so many errant points in your post, I'll focus only on the one below.

A common creationist tactic. Ignore most of the arguments given, pick on what one considers the weakest, attack that and then assume victory over the whole lot.

Ignored for the reason I gave earlier in Post #41

[Jose Fly]

So to bring this thread back on-topic I'll repeat.....this is pretty much a dead issue. One could say some of the debates in the past had some real world consequences, mostly in the realm of public education, but now there's no significant debate going on about teaching evolution or including creationism. And I suspect that as time passes and older generations who grew up with these debates die off and are replaced by generations for whom this was never an issue, it'll only fade further into obscurity.

I mean look at this forum....we've basically got one main creationist and about 6 or so people lined up trying to debate him. In another forum I recently stopped posting in it was even worse. I once counted 29 science advocates all trying to debate a single creationist! About the only online places I still see more than a few creationists are forums and such that are managed and very tightly controlled by Christians. But any place that is open to everyone is dominated by science advocates.

Of course this may all change if creationists feel empowered by a conservative SCOTUS to make a new push to get creationism into science classes (or get evolution out), but until that occurs, IMO the few online debates that still take place really only have one main purpose...entertainment.

[alexxcJRO]

So to bring this thread back on-topic I'll repeat.....this is pretty much a dead issue. One could say some of the debates in the past had some real world consequences, mostly in the realm of public education, but now there's no significant debate going on about teaching evolution or including creationism. And I suspect that as time passes and older generations who grew up with these debates die off and are replaced by generations for whom this was never an issue, it'll only fade further into obscurity.

I mean look at this forum....we've basically got one main creationist and about 6 or so people lined up trying to debate him. In another forum I recently stopped posting in it was even worse. I once counted 29 science advocates all trying to debate a single creationist! About the only online places I still see more than a few creationists are forums and such that are managed and very tightly controlled by Christians. But any place that is open to everyone is dominated by science advocates.

Of course this may all change if creationists feel empowered by a conservative SCOTUS to make a new push to get creationism into science classes (or get evolution out), but until that occurs, IMO the few online debates that still take place really only have one main purpose...entertainment.

Some anecdotal evidence from me.
I agree. From what I have seen in the last years the debate has quiet down both on online platforms and real life.
The young generation is slowly replacing the old one(my parents, grandparents). The new generation(born post 90s) is less religious, dogmatic and more open to science, to topics like evolution, climate change, gays and psychopaths behavior being innate.
I have another 4 brothers/sisters and 9 first degree cousins and many friends. Only my sister and one first degree cousin are Christians and go to Church. The rest of my brothers, cousins and all my friends are non-religious/agnostic. They could care less about topics like Creationism and Intelligent design.

[Jose Fly]

Some anecdotal evidence from me.
I agree. From what I have seen in the last years the debate has quiet down both on online platforms and real life.
The young generation is slowly replacing the old one(my parents, grandparents). The new generation(born post 90s) is less religious, dogmatic and more open to science, to topics like evolution, climate change, gays and psychopaths behavior being innate.
I have another 4 brothers/sisters and 9 first degree cousins and many friends. Only my sister and one first degree cousin are Christians and go to Church. The rest of my brothers, cousins and all my friends are non-religious/agnostic. They could care less about topics like Creationism and Intelligent design.

I see the same thing in the Christians in my family. The older folks will occasionally blurt out things like "We didn't come from no monkeys" and the younger ones will just roll their eyes and chuckle.

One of the results of the creationists' attempt to sneak their beliefs into classrooms via intelligent design was a strong response by the science and science education community, part of which involved a nationwide effort to make education in evolution a part of state science standards. That seems to be paying off (although there's certainly still more to do).

[brunumb]

Well understanding what caused the world, the universe, to exist is surely contributing to our understanding? understanding that our minds which can understand science, were created is surely contributing? could science even exist without human minds and their innate ability to comprehend mathematics?

You might have a point there if you can demonstrate that our minds were created.

What would it take to convince you? we might as well establish that criteria before we start.

Another diversionary tactic. My personal credulity is irrelevant. You can either demonstrate that our minds were created or you can't. If you can, then just do it. My personal credulity is irrelevant.

[brunumb]

There are so many errant points in your post, I'll focus only on the one below.

A common creationist tactic. Ignore most of the arguments given, pick on what one considers the weakest, attack that and then assume victory over the whole lot.

Ignored for the reason I gave earlier in Post #41

Yet another avoidance tactic. Now, whenever confronted with a question for which you have no meaningful response, you will provide the above pro-forma equivalent of "I got nothing". An even better strategy that is usually employed is to simply run away and save writing anything at all.

[alexxcJRO]

I see the same thing in the Christians in my family. The older folks will occasionally blurt out things like "We didn't come from no monkeys" and the younger ones will just roll their eyes and chuckle.

I showed my father last year this video from this link: "youtu.be/SGxDv7XybSo?list=PLdqO0Bi9aMUABSzJdL6BoMk_IpgHD-PpA"
The reaction was priceless.

One of the results of the creationists' attempt to sneak their beliefs into classrooms via intelligent design was a strong response by the science and science education community, part of which involved a nationwide effort to make education in evolution a part of state science standards. That seems to be paying off (although there's certainly still more to do).

The funny thing is for example in the famous Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District case where the judge was republican and some (if not all)biology teachers case were Christians.
They defended science and evolution.
They were called atheists by the people who supported ID. So big was the disconnect.
Judge got threats from the born again Christians. Perfect Jesus like behaviour.

The whole situation was ridiculous.

[Sherlock Holmes]

The political debate doesn't interest me. The 'evangelical' political right do not interest me. Even the education debate is of little interest.

The scientific debate does, so stop defending claims made in the name of evolution by any means necessary, defending one belief by attacking another, by attacking 'creationism' by attacking 'christians' by attacking anyone who refuses to buy into the dogma.

This very thread is just that, an attempt to discredit those who doubt, to equate dissent with fanaticism and extremist political leaning.

[Jose Fly]

I showed my father last year this video from this link: "youtu.be/SGxDv7XybSo?list=PLdqO0Bi9aMUABSzJdL6BoMk_IpgHD-PpA"
The reaction was priceless.

LOL...I trust he didn't care for it?

Seriously though, I don't confront the older folks in my family with things like that. They're old, are highly unlikely to change their views, and in harsh objective terms won't be around that much longer anyways. Everyone once in a while one of them will ask if I'm "still doin' that science" and when I say that yes I am, they'll smile and give the "you know we didn't come from no monkeys" line. Similar to my younger relatives, I mostly just smile and laugh. I mean, what else am I going to do? Start debating genetics with my uncle who graduated high school back in the 1950's?

The funny thing is for example in the famous Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District case where the judge was republican and some (if not all)biology teachers case were Christians.
They defended science and evolution.
They were called atheists by the people who supported ID. So big was the disconnect.
Judge got threats from the born again Christians. Perfect Jesus like behaviour.

The whole situation was ridiculous.

It was, but it completely killed the intelligent design movement. Since it was nothing more than a political strategy to sneak creationist talking points into science classes, Judge Jones' ruling was devastating to that effort. That, plus Behe's admission on the stand that if ID creationism is science then so is astrology, pretty much ended the charade. Good riddance.

[Jose Fly]

The political debate doesn't interest me. The 'evangelical' political right do not interest me. Even the education debate is of little interest.

The scientific debate does, so stop defending claims made in the name of evolution by any means necessary, defending one belief by attacking another, by attacking 'creationism' by attacking 'christians' by attacking anyone who refuses to buy into the dogma.

This very thread is just that, an attempt to discredit those who doubt, to equate dissent with fanaticism and extremist political leaning.

Your belief is noted.