Abiogenesis and Probabilities

[DrNoGods]

I'm creating a new thread here to continue debate on a post made by EarthScience guy on another thread (Science and Religion > Artificial life: can it be created?, post 17). This post challenged probability calculations in an old Talkorigins article that I had linked in that thread:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html

Are the arguments (on creationist views) and probabilities presented reasonable in the Talkorigins article? If not, why not?

[Noose001]

It's just a fact. They found an abiotic protein inside a meteorite.

A protein outside a living cell is nothing more than a chemical, a biochemical is a different kind of molecule.

Life is not required for that.

False. Only left handed amino acids are required for life.

Even the amino acids found in the Murchison meteorite have an excess of L-forms:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/ea ... -meteorite

So, it's not surprising that life on Earth used L-forms.

1. Provide evidence
2. Excess doesn't mean pure(100%). Again, life is 100% L- configured.

[The Barbarian]

I think everyone would like you to show us how biological processes have a purpose, but rivers, hurricanes and solar systems do not.

What do you have?

[The Barbarian]

It's just a fact. They found an abiotic protein inside a meteorite.

A protein outside a living cell is nothing more than a chemical, a biochemical is a different kind of molecule.

But you have no evidence for that belief? What makes you think it's true then? Is a strand of nucleic acid outside the body nothing more than a chemical?

(L-forms of amino acids are more common than D-forms)

Life is not required for that.

False.

It's true. As you just learned, L-forms predominate in the Murchison meteorite.

Only left handed amino acids are required for life.

Some kinds of life, but D-forms do occur in a wide variety of living things.
D-amino acid residues occur in cone snails.[5] They are also abundant components of the peptidoglycan cell walls of bacteria,[6] and D-serine may act as a neurotransmitter in the brain.[7] D-amino acids are used in racemic crystallography to create centrosymmetric crystals, which, depending on the protein, may allow for easier and more robust protein structure determination.[8]

Gramicidin is a polypeptide made up from mixture of D- and L-amino acids.[9] Other compounds containing D-amino acids are tyrocidine and valinomycin. These compounds disrupt bacterial cell walls, particularly in Gram-positive bacteria.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Amino_acid

Even the amino acids found in the Murchison meteorite have an excess of L-forms:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/ea ... -meteorite

So, it's not surprising that life on Earth used L-forms.

1. Provide evidence

See above. Also:
Michael H. Engel and Bartholomew Nagy, "Distribution and enantiomeric composition of amino acids in the Murchison meteorite," p 837-840 v 296 Nature, 1982.

2. Excess doesn't mean pure(100%). Again, life is 100% L- configured.

You're wrong again. See above.

And you were going to show us your evidence that things like storms and river systems don't have a purpose but biological processes do. What do you have?

[Noose001]

I think everyone would like you to show us how biological processes have a purpose, but rivers, hurricanes and solar systems do not.

What do you have?

I think i've done that a couple of times now but if you think any phyisico-chemical processes are purposeful, then i wish you luck.

[The Barbarian]

I think everyone would like you to show us how biological processes have a purpose, but rivers, hurricanes and solar systems do not.

What do you have?

I think i've done that a couple of times now

You've made the claim, but so far, no evidence for it. I realize you believe it, but you don't seem to be able to explain any reason why you should believe it.

It's pretty much just a belief for you, isn't it?

[Noose001]

But you have no evidence for that belief? What makes you think it's true then? Is a strand of nucleic acid outside the body nothing more than a chemical?

Yes, nucleic acid outside a cell cannot perform its 'purpose'.

(L-forms of amino acids are more common than D-forms)

Why?

In a natural set up consisting of energy, atoms and molecules necessary to make up amino acids, why would left handed amino acids be more than right handed amino acids?

Life is not required for that.

L-amino acids are required for functional proteins(life), some structural proteins may require D-amino acids but tgat's beside the point.

It's true. As you just learned, L-forms predominate in the Murchison meteorite.

Why?

[benchwarmer]

This is nothing more than desperation.

I see, so when your argument is defeated, it was done due to desperation. Seems like another assertion with no evidence.

Both sperms and ova do mulitiply through mitosis and miosis, but that's not the point.

It IS the point. Perhaps you didn't read my 'desperate' reply very closely. I said MATURE sperm. You know, the ones that actually fertilize the egg. They do not multiply.

Eggs also do not multiply, they are produced. Feel free to present evidence to the contrary, perhaps we will all learn something.

Sperms and ova are purposeful mainly in propagation/ multiplication of a LIVING ORHANISM.

Yes, no argument there since that was my point. A mature sperm (which can't multiply so must not be alive by your definition) combines with an egg (which also can't multiply so it not alive by your definition) and creates a living organism. Neat stuff.

Now, if you want to change your definition of 'alive', maybe we can try again?

[The Barbarian]

Is a strand of nucleic acid outside the body nothing more than a chemical?

Yes, nucleic acid outside a cell cannot perform its 'purpose'.

That's what a virus is. So you've concluded that viruses are not alive.

(L-forms of amino acids are more common than D-forms)

Why?

Biochemists think it's the effects of polarized light in space. And L-forms are more UV tolerant.

Life is not required for that.

Cell walls are kinda important to bacteria. That's how penicillin worked. It prevented cell wall formation, and without cell walls, the bacteria died. It's also why Gram-negative bacteria were always immune to penicillin.

L-amino acids are required for functional proteins(life), some structural proteins may require D-amino acids

You think cell walls and neurotransmitters aren't functional? Seriously?

As you just learned, L-forms predominate in the Murchison meteorite.

Why?

Mostly because L-forms are more UV tolerant.

[The Barbarian]

It should be pointed out that a natural origin of life is not inconsistent with theism. This is particularly true for Christianity, since Genesis says life came from non-living material. Nor does this rule out God's role in creating life. Indeed, even anti-Darwinians like intelligent design advocates admit this much. From Nature's Destiny by Discovery Institute Fellow Michael Denton:

"t is important to emphasize at the outset that the argument presented here is entirely consistent with the basic naturalistic assumption of modern science–that the cosmos is a seamless unity which can be comprehended in its entirety by human reason and in which all phenomena, including life and evolution and the origin of man, are ultimately explicable in terms of natural processes. This is an assumption which is entirely opposed to that of the so-called “special creationist school.” According to special creationism, living organisms are not natural forms, whose origin and design were built into the laws of nature from the beginning, but rather contingent forms analogous in essence to human artifacts, the result of a series of supernatural acts, involving God’s direct intervention in the course of nature, each of which involved the suspension of natural law. Contrary to the creationist position, the whole argument presented here is critically dependent on the presumption of the unbroken continuity of the organic world–that is, on the reality of organic evolution and on the presumption that all living organisms on earth are natural forms in the profoundest sense of the word, no less natural than salt crystals, atoms, waterfalls, or galaxies.

In large measure, therefore, the teleological argument presented here and the special creationist worldview are mutually exclusive accounts of the world. In the last analysis, evidence for one is evidence against the other. Put simply, the more convincing is the evidence for believing that the world is prefabricated to the end of life, that the design is built into the laws of nature, the less credible becomes the special creationist worldview."

[brunumb]

No, life is based on biochemistry.
Aren't you the one who clearly showed the difference between chemistry and biochemistry? One of the difference being order? Another being the environment?

No. Biochemistry is chemistry that simply refers to those processes involving mostly organic molecules occurring in living things. Those reactions are all governed by the same physical and chemical properties of matter. There is no other 'special' ingredient involved in biochemical reactions.