On the Bible being inerrant.

[nobspeople]

I came across a post the other day as follows:
"My argument doesnt rely on the Bible being inerrant."
It has meaning in the context of that discussion, of which I wasn't privy. But it got me thinking:

Does (or should, if you wish) a christian believe the bible is inerrant?

There seems to be a couple camps on the subject:
1) A christian should believe the bible is 100% true and accurate in every way
1a) This seems to indicate the bible was 'god written' (by whatever means you think necessary)
2) A christian should believe the bible is capable of being wrong or inaccurate
2a) This seems to indicate the bible may or may not have been 'god inspired'
2a1) To what extent is it god inspired and when do you know it is and when it isn't?
2b) To what percentage is the bible capable of being wrong or inaccurate?
3) A christian should be able to pick-n-choose their beliefs when they fit their chosen lifestyle agenda (this seems to be a popular choice for obvious reasons)

For discussion:
Do you believe the bible is infallible or not?
Why or why not?
How did you come to this belief?

NOTE: This should be about one's belief and why, not taken as a challenge to 'prove' the bible is or isn't correct and or devoid of errors, contradictions, lies or truths.

[Tcg]

Jesus believed that the Bible did not contain errors.

He regarded the Scriptures as a document whose formal declarations could never be annulled (John 10:35). For him the Scriptures (which includes three parts: the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets _ Luke 24:44) were the truth and absolutely necessary in order to be "sanctified" (John 17:17).

Modern Jehovah's Witnesses view the Scriptures in the same way as Jesus, and that includes the inspired writings that later became part of the canon of Christian writings (Compare to 2 Pet. 3:15,16).

2 Tim. 2:16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

It would be impossible for Paul to say these things about the inspired Scriptures if there were errors in them. How then could it be someone "fully competent, completely equipped for every good work" or "setting things straight"? What kind of "righteous discipline" could be applied based on the Scriptures if they contained errors in their formal statements? God's justice is not like that of humans ... that's why in some other comment I compared to be a lawyer and adjust to the references in the law books and previous cases to judge current cases ... There is no just law without a reliable document. The Bible contains the information necessary to learn God's point of view on the issues we need to understand for our salvation.

Rom. 5:4 For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.

1 Cor. 10:11 Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come.

This is quite astounding. You are using the Bible to support the claim that the Bible is inerrant.




Tcg

[Eloi]

[Replying to Tcg in post #61]
What is astounding is that you do not realize that I am not "using the Bible to support the claim that the Bible is inerrant" but the declarations of the real persons who did collaborate for the Bible to be written. Did anyone ever tell you that the Bible came down written from heaven?

[brunumb]

Did anyone ever tell you that the Bible came down written from heaven?

Can you demonstrate that the Bible did in fact come down written from heaven?

[Tcg]

[Replying to Tcg in post #61]
What is astounding is that you do not realize that I am not "using the Bible to support the claim that the Bible is inerrant"...

In your not using the Bible you referred to 7 passages from the Bible. How exactly is that not using the Bible?


Tcg

[benchwarmer]

#1 The genealogy of Jesus (Matthew 1:1-17 vs Luke 3:23-38).
#2 God needs to rest or not? (Isaiah 40:28 vs Exodus 31:17)
#3 Man can see God or not? (Genesis 32:30 vs John 1:18)
#4 What were Jesus's last words? (Mark 15:34 vs Luke 23:46 vs John 19:28)
#5 How many animals did Jesus ride on into Jerusalem? (Mark 11 1:7 vs Matthew 21 1:7)

Next up:

#6 Does God change his mind? (1 Samual 15:28 vs Exodus 32:14)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV

28 And Samuel said to him, "The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from you this very day, and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you. 29 Moreover the Glory of Israel will not recant<a> or change his mind; for he is not a mortal, that he should change his mind."

Footnote <a> 1 Samuel 15:29 Q Ms Gk: MT deceive

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV

Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, how you swore to them by your own self, saying to them, I will multiply your descendants like the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever." 14 And the Lord changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Tcg in post #61]
What is astounding is that you do not realize that I am not "using the Bible to support the claim that the Bible is inerrant" but the declarations of the real persons who did collaborate for the Bible to be written. Did anyone ever tell you that the Bible came down written from heaven?

Actually, you are. The errors show that the Bible is not 'inerrant'. far from it. But what is done is to appeal to the Bible being God's word and therefore inerrant and any errors are 'because of misunderstanding'. That is absolutely using the Bible to validate the Bible. Or more strictly, using denialist Faith to validate denialist Faith.

[otseng]

And this would make the most sense if we stay in the camp of god. But why would god allow this? It creates doubt, division. It doesn't impart faith or instill knowledge. If god is loving and wants all his creation to get to heaven, this is counter to that ideal.

Because God does not fit our expectations of what God should do does not mean God cannot do what he wants. At most, it only means the God that we perceive to exist is not real. If we expect God to be a Santa Claus in the sky and make everything easy, simple, and all rainbow and roses and then we encounter a problem in our life, it does not mean God is not real. But, at most it means this personal heavenly Santa Claus does not exist.

Even at the time of Jesus, he did not do what the Jews were expecting from a Messiah. A dying Messiah made absolutely no sense to them.

We all have flaws and shortcomings. Yet God can still work through us in spite of our imperfections.

One would think. But that's not what's happening with christianity throughout history, when it comes to this subject. Branches split, arguments happen over minutia, people leave the faith because of it, and on and on.

Yet the church continues and will continue past any earthly kingdom.

Why should we expect them to magically turn on the perfection switch when they wrote scripture?

I don't think most anyone expects this. But if god was working with them (inspired, if one wishes) god could have been able to make sure there were no errors, contradictions, omissions. Yet this isn't happening.

And I don't think anyone can explain how someone can write with 100% precision without some "perfection switch" being turned on. I think everyone agrees the Biblical authors were not in a trance like state when writing. They were themselves with their own personality, habits, education level, intelligence, etc. I do believe there's something going on in the spiritual level that we don't understand, but I don't think it was able to overrule our imperfections. Yet, it is able to use our imperfections to do things that is beyond our comprehension.

If a story written with contradictions, errors, omission and confusion is divine, I need to write another book.

I'll add another controversial thought. The Bible is not "divine" in the sense it is an object to be worshiped. Yes, it's holy and inspired, but it is not the ultimate destination. It is a path to the goal, which is God.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to otseng in post #67]

Because God does not fit our expectations of what God should do does not mean God cannot do what he wants.

I haven't seen anyone saying otherwise.

At most, it only means the God that we perceive to exist is not real.

Perhaps. Or it could also mean there is no god at all. Or that we don't understand the existing god. I don't think we can make an intellectually honest, all encompassing comment such as 'at most', as that seems to indicate no other options. This, itself, seem to indicate we know everything about god. Which we don't (if one exists at all). In short, the 'at most' is a grand overstatement as used above. IMO.
So then we have to rely on what we think we know. We think we know the christian god is all powerful, all knowing, all loving on and on and on. Yet, some of the things god seems to do (or not do) doesn't seem to indicate love for humanity at all. Why allow four stories to be written by multiple people, edited by others, translated by even more, only to have errors, omissions, contradictions, lack of explanation, and on and on, if god knows (being all knowing) this will cause division, confusion, lack of faith and, many times, ultimately desertion of current christians and prevent others from becoming christian?
One can excuse god until the cows come home and the fat lady sings, but that doesn't change the fact of this:
God could have had millions of stories written about him and had them all devoid of contradictions, errors, omissions, confusion. Yet, god did no such thing.
Therefore, we can only surmise he was unable to do so, willfully refused to do so, or isn't around to do so.

Yet the church continues and will continue past any earthly kingdom.

Opinion noted, but that does nothing for those that look, get confused, and move on, choosing not to follow christ. But I guess it's more quantity and longevity than quality?

And I don't think anyone can explain how someone can write with 100% precision without some "perfection switch" being turned on.

An excuse. People can't explain how a being that's always existed created everything that exists, but they believe it. And oft times expect others to believe it, too. Seems if god can do that, making stories match would be a piece of cake.

It [the bible] is a path to the goal, which is God.

A path that confuses some with its oft times contradictory trail.
God can create all that is but can't write a book without issues?

[Eloi]

[Replying to Tcg in post #61]
What is astounding is that you do not realize that I am not "using the Bible to support the claim that the Bible is inerrant" but the declarations of the real persons who did collaborate for the Bible to be written.

There is an important difference in how an unbeliever looks at the Bible and how a believer sees it as the Word of God as a whole.

The non-believer sometimes think that we, believers, consider the Bible as a single, very special book but from a literary-religious point of view. Although that is correct up to a point, the Bible is not just a book BUT a set of documents that were written in different times and places. The writers, humanly speaking, were real persons, and they were of different backgrounds: religious leaders, rulers and social leaders, sheepherders, doctors, businessmen, etc. From Moses to John there were about 40 people of whom very few had any contact with each other, either because of the time in which they lived or the place where they lived at that time.

Did anyone ever tell you that the Bible came down written from heaven?

These non-believers, many of whom are just typical scoffers who do not even take seriously the matters to which they themselves spend so much time, give the impression of believing that for a religious the Bible is a book that has come down written from heaven. When they talk about it, it seems that they disconnect it from the reality in which it was written and from what it really is from the HUMAN point of view, which is what they should really take into account if they are not interested in the religious point of view.

The Bible DID NOT come down from heaven, nor was it written overnight. Those who mention it in their antireligious musings, should at least take a little course on what they want to talk so much about without knowing what it is.

[benchwarmer]

#1 The genealogy of Jesus (Matthew 1:1-17 vs Luke 3:23-38).
#2 God needs to rest or not? (Isaiah 40:28 vs Exodus 31:17)
#3 Man can see God or not? (Genesis 32:30 vs John 1:18)
#4 What were Jesus's last words? (Mark 15:34 vs Luke 23:46 vs John 19:28)
#5 How many animals did Jesus ride on into Jerusalem? (Mark 11 1:7 vs Matthew 21 1:7)
#6 Does God change his mind? (1 Samual 15:28 vs Exodus 32:14)

Next up:

#7 Was Jesus betrayed with a kiss or did He see it all coming and pre-emptively ask the soldiers who they wanted and told them who He was? (Matthew 26:47-50 vs John 18:4-8)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV

While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the twelve, arrived; with him was a large crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48 Now the betrayer had given them a sign, saying, "The one I will kiss is the man; arrest him." 49 At once he came up to Jesus and said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him. 50 Jesus said to him, "Friend, do what you are here to do." Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and arrested him.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV

So Judas brought a detachment of soldiers together with police from the chief priests and the Pharisees, and they came there with lanterns and torches and weapons. 4 Then Jesus, knowing all that was to happen to him, came forward and asked them, "Whom are you looking for?" 5 They answered, "Jesus of Nazareth." Jesus replied, "I am he." Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. 6 When Jesus said to them, "I am he," they stepped back and fell to the ground. 7 Again he asked them, "Whom are you looking for?" And they said, "Jesus of Nazareth." 8 Jesus answered, "I told you that I am he. So if you are looking for me, let these men go."