The morality of religious education

[Ncik666]

Finished the "God Delusion" a while ago and he talks quite a bit about this. Frankly I can't argue. To educate children in religious matters before they have the information to make an informed descision is on one side completely wrong. You wouldn't tell your kid that computers will swallow them whole if they look at porn, would you? But is it right to tell them that if they don't go to to a place with a lot of people who don't think about evidence they go to a burning pit of eternal suffering?

[James]

Keeping an "open mind" or being able to think critically, presupposes a level of intellectual maturity that most children acquire only slowly. A cynic might say that some people never get that far.

It is almost inevitable that religious and other values will be transmitted by parents to their children. There is nothing inherently sinister about this. It's a factor in social conditioning that sometimes goes awry. But what's the alternative?

James.

[Ncik666]

What I'm trying to put forward is the morality of the intentional transferrence of religious values. I can hardly expect to see no religion being passed on, or the stopping of unintentional conditioning. I also want to put forward the idea of [ublic schools teaching the values of open mindedness early on. At least this way children know it is good to be open minded and not just listen to what others say early on. At least teaching the question "why" is what I'm trying to get at.

[James]

What I'm trying to put forward is the morality of the intentional transferrence of religious values. I can hardly expect to see no religion being passed on, or the stopping of unintentional conditioning. I also want to put forward the idea of [ublic schools teaching the values of open mindedness early on. At least this way children know it is good to be open minded and not just listen to what others say early on. At least teaching the question "why" is what I'm trying to get at.

Can you explain why it would be immoral, and let's be specific here, to intentionally transmit Christian values to one's children?

Note that I'm not defending, for example, the transmission of Aztec religious values (or some similar cult) which would include a reverence for human sacrifice.

James.

[Ncik666]

I'm not bashing christian values. I'm saying children should be allowed to think for themselves and be able to figure out on their own if they believe or not. Basically I'm hinting that any intentional religious indoctrination might be said to be corruption of the childs mind, but I don't want to go that far.

[katiej49]

Finished the "God Delusion" a while ago and he talks quite a bit about this. Frankly I can't argue. To educate children in religious matters before they have the information to make an informed descision is on one side completely wrong. You wouldn't tell your kid that computers will swallow them whole if they look at porn, would you? But is it right to tell them that if they don't go to to a place with a lot of people who don't think about evidence they go to a burning pit of eternal suffering?

yes and while you are at it...dont make them go to school. let them decide if its ok with them. and dont make them take their injections to protect against disease, THEY should decide that themselves (some say they are harmful you know....and of course you shouldnt make them see the dentist, its THEIR choice as to whether they let their teeth rot as they get older....dont make them eat nutritious food, THEY should decide if pizza and ice cream is best for them.........you should wait till they are old enough to make informed decisions on this stuff

[Ncik666]

I never mentioned that they should be allowed to make the descision while they are young. When they reach a proper maturity level then they will make the descision themselves. I almost subconciously stopped believing in God. I think children should have the opportunity to not be indoctrinated. To allow them to make general descisions is not what I'm after. Believe me I don't believe in "more freedom for the youth" I just don't believe religion should be forced upon anyone, especially if they are young.

[Negative Proof]

As much as I'm against proselytizing to youth, nothing will stop religious parents from doing so. What can be completely objective, however, are the schools we pay for. Personal beliefs are just that... personal beliefs. Parents should teach their children what they believe is right. Teachers should teach science. All of science, without omitting the inconvenient parts to cater to any certain group. Explain the holes in the evolutionary theory, and explain that some see the whole process as the work of a god. It's not difficult. This neither forces faith upon nonbelievers nor destroys the faith of those who do believe. Personal beliefs should be left for the student and the parents to discuss at home. I certainly will not have my child enrolled at a school that would attempt to sway them one way or the other.

In actuality, children who turn out smart enough to think for themselves will make up their own minds eventually, while those who never develop that capability will have their minds made up for them. Call me elitist, but I think that's fair.

[Edited for spelling]

[cnorman18]

Seems to me that most kids brought up in mainstream religious homes of whatever denomination go through a rebellious stage anyway, when they're as likely as not to announce that they're atheists or Buddhists or whatever just to tick off their parents. Rejection of Mom and Dad's religious, political, and moral values is a reflex. Whether or not critical thinking is involved is another matter, but if the kid takes religious ideas seriously at all, he'll be thinking about them on his own with an inclination to try on something new anyway.

I don't really see a big problem here. How many atheists on this board were raised in religious homes and were made to go to Sunday school? It looks to me like quite a lot. Are they convinced for some reason that they are smarter or more independent-minded than anyone else, and that other people can't go through the same process they did? (I have to add that I've always wondered if the children of atheists express their rebellion at 13 by becoming Baptists.)

I seriously doubt that religious "indoctrination" is happening in 98% or better of nominally religious homes in the first place, and to the extent that it is, the nature of adolescence and early adulthood will render it futile. Jews work harder at trying to instill Jewish values and a respect and reverence for Judaism in their kids than most Protestants, but we still lose about half our kids to other religions or none at all. So much for "indoctrination."

Parents are going to share who they are and what they think with their children. Anything that's intended to prevent that will be a very great deal worse than anything that's happening now. Who wants the government, or anyone else, telling you how to raise YOUR kids and what values and beliefs to teach them? Show of hands?

I also wonder why this is only applied to religious belief. Is no one worried about the propriety of teaching one's children, for instance, that George W. Bush is a racist, a warmonger, a Nazi, and a criminal, that the Republican Party is the moral equivalent of the Ku Klux Klan, and that the only proper form of government is Socialism? (If your response is, "But that's all true," you're probably doing more "indoctrination" at your house than any Southern Baptist I ever met--and I live in Texas.) Before you pounce, I would say the same thing about doctrinaire right-wingers, too. There is much more extremism in mainstream politics today than there is in mainstream religion, and if you don't think so, you're not reading the papers.

Now if we're talking about out-and-out cults, like the FLDS compound that was raided here in Texas this week, where 16-year-old girls have already given birth to four babies and are "married" to men in their 50s, that's quite another kettle of fish; but I get the impression that the concern here is about ordinary religious people, not nuts, teaching their children ordinary religion, not Heaven's Gate craziness. And I really don't think there's any sane way to stop that, or any sane reason to try.

[eymik]

Anything you 'teach' children is indoctrination, whether that be religious beliefs or manners or hygiene standards. You are imbuing your ideologies onto them.

When children go to school, they are indoctrinated by all their teachers and the school culture. They are taught science as fact, when new things are being discovered everyday (and let's not forget the political/cultural/religious bias schools have). The same with art, language, history, maths. They are being taught what the teachers/syllabus believe is right. They are told what to do and when to do it. If they protest, they are told they are wrong and naughty and punished.

In the media and advertising we are indoctrinated daily. We are told what is good, what is beautiful, what is acceptable.

In parents do nothing, their children are guaranteed to be indoctrinated by someone or something else. I think it's just, even necessary that parents teach their children the truth about the world to the best of their knowledge, be that Catholicism, paganism, or Nazism. Anything else is just irresponsible.

Open-mindedness is one thing, but that can easily turn into tolerance and being blase. "They think one thing, I don't necessarily agree, but I tolerate them." Laws and norms change everyday. Incest, bestiality, and many other 'unacceptable' actions can easily become the norm if the people tolerate them and stop judging them.

[McCulloch]

Anything you 'teach' children is indoctrination, whether that be religious beliefs or manners or hygiene standards. You are imbuing your ideologies onto them.

So we should teach them to think clearly and critically. We should teach them that what is taught to them is subject to revision. We should teach them how to evaluate fallacious reasoning and to estimate bias. These are the antidote to indoctrination.