What comes first, family or God?

[nobspeople]

The below link is lengthy (about 60 minutes), but speaks, in part, about how one's religious beliefs in a religion can cause families to fracture. We see this happen in families of no religion, Scientologists, Mormons, Catholics, JWs (as in this example) etc.
While this doesn't always happen, at what point does one (or should one) put their belief system before their family?
Does God command such a thing, or is it something the religion dictates only?

[brunumb]

"By smooth talk and complimentary speech they seduce the hearts of guileless ones.”

That's precisely the tactic used to lure people into extremist sects. Funny how they also use it to keep the 'undesirables' out.

[2ndRateMind]

Should you shun your family if they don't love God?

No, you should throw stones at them until they're dead.

Deuteronomy 13:6-11

If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, entices you secretly, saying, “Let’s go and serve other gods”—which you have not known, you, nor your fathers; of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near to you, or far off from you, from the one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth—you shall not consent to him nor listen to him; neither shall your eye pity him, neither shall you spare, neither shall you conceal him; but you shall surely kill him. Your hand shall be first on him to put him to death, and afterwards the hands of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he has sought to draw you away from Yahweh your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. All Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall not do any more wickedness like this among you.

So maybe the JWs are more correct in this matter than the rest of us?

Kidding aside, why, or even HOW, such a loving supreme being that God's said to be could be jealous (feeling or showing envy of someone or their achievements and advantages) make zero sense to me. Is he really that insecure?

Exodus 20:5
"...or I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,"

Deuteronomy 6:15
"For the Lord your God in your midst is a jealous God..."

Seems like insecure overkill. But then again, the bible has stories of God killing (I know, entirely justified of course) so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised?
Still

Yes, I'm not a great fan of the Old Testament. Or indeed, some aspects of the New. Seems to me that the way to go is with Jesus' conception of a loving father of all mankind.

As for JW's, they are clearly a cult. But I tend to the view that any Christian faith at all is better than no faith at all.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[JehovahsWitness]

It's not Yahweh that's jealous ...

How can you possibly prove this? Have you met him? And even if you did do you have special mind reading capacities?

Would you like to modify your statement to that of "mere" belief?




JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[The Tanager]

Yes, I'm not a great fan of the Old Testament. Or indeed, some aspects of the New. Seems to me that the way to go is with Jesus' conception of a loving father of all mankind.

As for JW's, they are clearly a cult. But I tend to the view that any Christian faith at all is better than no faith at all.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Moderator Comment

Please refrain from calling any group a cult. Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[2ndRateMind]

Yes, I'm not a great fan of the Old Testament. Or indeed, some aspects of the New. Seems to me that the way to go is with Jesus' conception of a loving father of all mankind.

As for JW's, they are clearly a cult. But I tend to the view that any Christian faith at all is better than no faith at all.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Moderator Comment

Please refrain from calling any group a cult. Please review the Rules.


So, here are two reasons I consider JWs a cult.

1) they consider that all excess of income should go to the their central organisation
2) they have a particular take on Christianity, and disfellowship/send to coventry any one who disagrees with that take.

Nevertheless, as I said, I would prefer that one should be a JW than an atheist.

Best wishes, 2RM

[Paul of Tarsus]

Would faithful Christians welcome apostates into their presence, either personally or by reading their literature?

2 John 9, 10: “Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. . . . If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him.”

Rom. 16:17, 18: “I exhort you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them. . . . By smooth talk and complimentary speech they seduce the hearts of guileless ones.”

No marriage is going to survive a spouse treating her or his spouse this way not to mention the devastation done to friends and family of the couple.

Are you suggesting that we apply the above to marriage partners and minor children? I assure you, regardless their spiritual position, Jehovahs Witnesses do not ignore or avoid their marriage mates. On the contrary the bible based counsel is as follows...

Yes. Obviously I'm suggesting that Jehovah's Witnesses apply what they read in the Bible to the way they treat the families under the influence of the Watchtower. The Watchtower claims that it bases its beliefs and practices on the Bible. Are you saying that Jehovah's Witnesses sometimes disregard what the Bible says?

Since blood and marital relationships are not dissolved by a congregational disfellowshiping action, the situation within the family circle requires special consideration. A woman whose husband is disfellowshiped is not released from the Scriptural requirement to respect his husbandly headship over her; only death or Scriptural divorce from a husband results in such release. (Rom. 7:1-3; Mark 10:11, 12) A husband likewise is not released from loving his wife as “one flesh” with him even though she should be disfellowshiped. (Matt. 19:5, 6; Eph. 5:28-31) Parents similarly remain under the injunction to ‘go on bringing up their children in the discipline and mental-regulating of Jehovah’ even though a baptized son or a daughter yet a minor is disfellowshiped. (Eph. 6:4) And sons and daughters, of whatever age, remain under the obligation to ‘honor their father and mother’ although one or both of these may be disfellowshiped. (Matt. 15:4; Eph. 6:2) This is not difficult to understand when we consider that, according to the Scriptures, even political officials of this world are to be shown due honor by Christians.​—Rom. 13:1, 7. - The Watchtower 1974 August 1 page. 470

I should point out that I'm not saying that marriages should never break up. If domestic violence, cruelty, or just plain unhappiness plagues a marriage, then wife and husband may divorce if they decide to. What I am saying is that the Watchtower need not add its dogma as one more reason for marriaqes to break up. Also, wife and husband should be equal partners in their marriage, and neither one of them should rule over the other.

Anyway, I don't see how you can reconcile what the Bible says about the treatment of apostates and what the Watchtower says about disfellowshipped wives and husbands. It looks like Jehovah's Witnesses are inconsistent in their beliefs.

I have another illuminating story about Jehovah's Witnesses regarding apostacy. I used to meet regularly with a son-mother team, Silas and Teresa, both Jehovah's Witnesses. One night with great passion Silas told me that regarding apostates: "We hate those people!" Teresa looked on with approval, and she did not disagree. So what I've seen from Jehovah's Witnesses and what you say about them differ markedly.

Finally, here's a great "smack down" from Dr. Phil.

[JehovahsWitness]

.. I don't see how you can reconcile what the Bible says about the treatment of apostates and what the Watchtower says about disfellowshipped wives and husbands.

You dont have to; the policy we have adopted is to OUR satisfaction.

It looks like Jehovah's Witnesses are inconsistent in their beliefs.

If your statement is based on the recognition that JWs do not indeed apply the scriptures cited as you suggested then my work here is done. How you feel about this is your own.


JW

[Paul of Tarsus]

.. I don't see how you can reconcile what the Bible says about the treatment of apostates and what the Watchtower says about disfellowshipped wives and husbands. It looks like Jehovah's Witnesses are inconsistent in their beliefs.

You dont have to; it is however a fact that Jehovahs Witnesse policy is to not apply the above passages to marriage partners.

I'm not so sure that it's a fact. Please remember that I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, and I'm allowed to think for myself. I think it's very possible that the Watchtower may be covering up its practices of breaking up marriages if wife or husband is branded an apostate. Some people have alleged that the Watchtower is not always honest. I know what Jehovah's Witnesses I've known have told me in person about their treatment of apostates, and it contradicts what you have posted on this thread.

It looks like Jehovah's Witnesses are inconsistent in their beliefs.

If your statement is based on the recognition that JWs do not indeed apply the scriptures cited as you suggested...

Sorry, but I know a contradiction when I read one. If the Bible commands that believers "never receive him (an apostate) into your homes or say a greeting to him," and "avoid them (apostates)," and you say the Watchtower does not enforce such rules, then Watchtower policy contradicts their own Bible which is good if true!

... then my work here is done. How you feel about this is your own.

When you know you're losing, then beating a hasty retreat may be the best thing to do.

Anyway, I do wish you would make sure no harm is done by your religion. Hurting people in Christ's name will not help his cause.

[otseng]

So, here are two reasons I consider JWs a cult.

I don't want to get this thread too side-tracked, but I'll throw in a few comments.

A general principle when dealing with other religions is to avoid calling a group that they would not call themselves. For example, it would be disrespectful to call me a a Fundie, even though I am a fundamentalist. Or it would be disrespectful to call me a heretic, even though I hold to unconventional beliefs. So, even if it is true that I'm a Fundie and a heretic from another's perspective, to show respect, it's best to avoid saying these things.

On the other hand, I don't want to censure this forum too much and prevent debate on the belief of others. We should be able to debate if a group's belief is right or wrong. It is a fine balance between respect and freedom of expression. We try to promote both, but it's not easy.

[William]

So, here are two reasons I consider JWs a cult.

I don't want to get this thread too side-tracked, but I'll throw in a few comments.

A general principle when dealing with other religions is to avoid calling a group that they would not call themselves. For example, it would be disrespectful to call me a a Fundie, even though I am a fundamentalist. Or it would be disrespectful to call me a heretic, even though I hold to unconventional beliefs. So, even if it is true that I'm a Fundie and a heretic from another's perspective, to show respect, it's best to avoid saying these things.

On the other hand, I don't want to censure this forum too much and prevent debate on the belief of others. We should be able to debate if a group's belief is right or wrong. It is a fine balance between respect and freedom of expression. We try to promote both, but it's not easy.

What Is A Cult? [Link in "General Chat"]