Former Atheists - What convinced you?

[rikuoamero]

What I'm writing here is for those people who consider themselves to be former atheist i.e. at one point in life, they either lacked a belief in a god of any kind, or actively disbelieved there is a God (there's a difference between the two).
I'm hoping that at least some people who are of this group (and hopefully joined the usergroup called 'Former Atheist' on this site) are/were also skeptical, in that they demanded evidence for religious claims.

My question is - What is it that convinced you? If you were to somehow go back in time and meet your previous, atheist (hopefully skeptic) self, would you or could you use whatever it is that convinced you to convince that version of you? Or would your past self be skeptical and dismissive of what it is you present?

Just to be clear - This isn't restricted to Christians only. You can be a Muslim who considers him/herself former atheist or whatever religion or belief you subscribe to. I want to hear from you.
I also promise NOT to debate in this thread. All I want are responses and your thoughts on this question. I will probably debate elsewhere, but not on this thread. This thread is solely for me to gather information.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #91]

I'll see your Paul Patton at Indiana Public Media and raise you Professors Gregory Fournier and Tanja Bosak from MIT.

There is even a video for your viewing pleasure.

https://eapsweb.mit.edu/news/2018/how-e ... its-oxygen

Oxygen compounds is not free oxygen (o2). Oxygen compounds are things like h2o and co2. o3 can't be made with oxygen compounds like co2 and h2o without life to turn it into o2. This gives the earth it's protection for UV rays. The atmosphere is rich in oxygen, which reacts with both hydrogen and deuterium to recreate water. You accept that right? What you're finding is not in disagreement with what I am finding. The reason we don't lose water into space from the Earth is because of the free o2 in the atmosphere. The reason we have o2 is because of microorganisms. o2 can't be in the atmosphere without life. An oxygen compound is not o2. Do you accept this?

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #91]

I'll see your Paul Patton at Indiana Public Media and raise you Professors Gregory Fournier and Tanja Bosak from MIT.

There is even a video for your viewing pleasure.

https://eapsweb.mit.edu/news/2018/how-e ... its-oxygen

Oxygen compounds is not free oxygen (o2). Oxygen compounds are things like h2o and co2. o3 can't be made with oxygen compounds like co2 and h2o without life to turn it into o2. This gives the earth it's protection for UV rays. The atmosphere is rich in oxygen, which reacts with both hydrogen and deuterium to recreate water. You accept that right? What you're finding is not in disagreement with what I am finding. The reason we don't lose water into space from the Earth is because of the free o2 in the atmosphere. The reason we have o2 is because of microorganisms. o2 can't be in the atmosphere without life. An oxygen compound is not o2. Do you accept this?

I would appreciate it if you would read my posts more carefully because I never suggested that oxygen-rich compounds were equivalent to O2 molecules. The information I provided described the release of oxygen-rich compounds from magma where those compounds would subsequently be subject to the process of photodissociation in the upper atmosphere to form O2 molecules.

Any luck yet finding out what the earliest microfossils are in the geologic record?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #91]

I'll see your Paul Patton at Indiana Public Media and raise you Professors Gregory Fournier and Tanja Bosak from MIT.

There is even a video for your viewing pleasure.

https://eapsweb.mit.edu/news/2018/how-e ... its-oxygen

Oxygen compounds is not free oxygen (o2). Oxygen compounds are things like h2o and co2. o3 can't be made with oxygen compounds like co2 and h2o without life to turn it into o2. This gives the earth it's protection for UV rays. The atmosphere is rich in oxygen, which reacts with both hydrogen and deuterium to recreate water. You accept that right? What you're finding is not in disagreement with what I am finding. The reason we don't lose water into space from the Earth is because of the free o2 in the atmosphere. The reason we have o2 is because of microorganisms. o2 can't be in the atmosphere without life. An oxygen compound is not o2. Do you accept this?

I would appreciate it if you would read my posts more carefully because I never suggested that oxygen-rich compounds were equivalent to O2 molecules. The information I provided described the release of oxygen-rich compounds from magma where those compounds would subsequently be subject to the process of photodissociation in the upper atmosphere to form O2 molecules.

Any luck yet finding out what the earliest microfossils are in the geologic record?

"Ancient cyanobacteria left behind the oldest fossils on earth, some dating back to 3.5 billion years ago." - From the MIT article.
Do you know when the rock record shows evidence of when oxygen began to build up in the atmosphere? Do you think it was before or after life started on this planet? I'll give you 3 guesses and the first two don't count.

Photodissociation in the upper atmosphere to form O2 molecules.

The geological record doesn't support this theory and why it's not widely accepted as how Earth got it's o2.

[bluegreenearth]

"Ancient cyanobacteria left behind the oldest fossils on earth, some dating back to 3.5 billion years ago." - From the MIT article.
Do you know when the rock record shows evidence of when oxygen began to build up in the atmosphere? Do you think it was before or after life started on this planet? I'll give you 3 guesses and the first two don't count.

Photodissociation in the upper atmosphere to form O2 molecules.

The geological record doesn't support this theory and why it's not widely accepted as how Earth got it's o2.

I never suggest the Earth acquired the bulk of its O2 from the photodissociation of water vapor. Furthermore, I wouldn't expect the existence of O2 in the upper atmosphere of the primordial Earth to be recorded in the geologic record. The geologic record only records atmospheric gases that would have been in contact with the Earth's surface. The reason scientists know the O2 concentrations in the entire atmosphere built up over time after the emergence of O2 producing organisms is because O2 in the portion of the atmosphere that was in contact with the Earth's surface didn't exist to be recorded in the geologic record until after the emergence of O2 producing organisms. Therefore, how is it reasonable to conclude from the absence of O2 in the composition of primordial magma from below the planet's surface that it would have been impossible for some small but significant portion of O2 to subsequently form from the photodissociation of water vapor released to the upper atmosphere by volcanic eruptions? Are you suggesting that water vapor is not released during volcanic eruptions or that it is not possible for O2 to form from the photodissociation of water vapor in the upper atmosphere?

As for the earliest microfossils being cyanobacteria, this information strongly suggests that large quantities of water must have already been available in order for the first of those cyanobacteria to have emerged and reproduced in sufficient quantities to have gradually increased the concentration of O2 in the entire atmosphere over millions of years. The bodies of those cyanobacteria gradually became incorporated into sedimentary layers below the ocean where they were fossilized. Therefore, doesn't this directly imply that it must have been possible for a liquid water ocean to exist on Earth prior to the emergence of cyanobacteria?

Where else could that water have come from if not from icy objects that collided with the planet during its initial formation, incorporated into the composition of magma as oxygen-rich compounds, released to the atmosphere as water vapor, and subsequently condensed into liquid water?

[2timothy316]

Are you suggesting that...it is not possible for O2 to form from the photodissociation of water vapor in the upper atmosphere?

Yes, I am saying it's not possible. Many other scientist say the same thing. The h2o molecule can be split by UV rays true, but there is no way for the single freed oxygen atom to pair up with another oxygen atom to make o2. This doesn't even happen in the Earth's atmosphere now, what makes you think it happened then?

Where else could that water have come from if not from icy objects that collided with the planet during its initial formation, incorporated into the composition of magma as oxygen-rich compounds, released to the atmosphere as water vapor, and subsequently condensed into liquid water?

One possibility is that water was delivered when the rogue planet that hit the earth and gave the Earth it's moon. The Moon has a lot of water in it and the Earth got its moon very soon after it had become a planet. There is "roughly equivalent to a 12-ounce bottle of water trapped in a cubic meter of soil spread across the lunar surface." The Moon is our most likely smoking gun. There is less of a smoking gun from "icy objects that collided with the planet during its initial formation." The closest icy objects would be the Kuiper belt and we are not even sure how that got there and if it has any relation to the Earth's water at all. The Moon on the other hand is the closest icy object to the Earth.

https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/ho ... cna1011441
https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa ... e-of-moon/
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/10 ... r-we-think

[bluegreenearth]

Are you suggesting that...it is not possible for O2 to form from the photodissociation of water vapor in the upper atmosphere?

Yes, I am saying it's not possible. Many other scientist say the same thing. The h2o molecule can be split by UV rays true, but there is no way for the single freed oxygen atom to pair up with another oxygen atom to make o2. This doesn't even happen in the Earth's atmosphere now, what makes you think it happened then?

I recommend you read my posts more carefully because I never suggested that the photodissociation of H2O results in a single O. When "photodissociation water vapor" is searched in Google.com, I read the following:

"Photodissociation (i.e., separation due to the energy of light) of water vapour into molecular hydrogen (H2) and molecular oxygen (O2) in the upper atmosphere allowed the hydrogen to escape and led to a progressive increase of the partial pressure of oxygen at Earth's surface."

One possibility is that water was delivered when the rogue planet that hit the earth and gave the Earth it's moon. The Moon has a lot of water in it and the Earth got its moon very soon after it had become a planet. There is "roughly equivalent to a 12-ounce bottle of water trapped in a cubic meter of soil spread across the lunar surface." The Moon is our most likely smoking gun. There is less of a smoking gun from "icy objects that collided with the planet during its initial formation." The closest icy objects would be the Kuiper belt and we are not even sure how that got there and if it has any relation to the Earth's water at all. The Moon on the other hand is the closest icy object to the Earth.

https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/ho ... cna1011441
https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa ... e-of-moon/
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/10 ... r-we-think

I was including the rogue planet as one of the icy objects that collided with Earth. So, there is no disagreement.

[2timothy316]

Are you suggesting that...it is not possible for O2 to form from the photodissociation of water vapor in the upper atmosphere?

Yes, I am saying it's not possible. Many other scientist say the same thing. The h2o molecule can be split by UV rays true, but there is no way for the single freed oxygen atom to pair up with another oxygen atom to make o2. This doesn't even happen in the Earth's atmosphere now, what makes you think it happened then?

I recommend you read my posts more carefully because I never suggested that the photodissociation of H2O results in a single O. When "photodissociation water vapor" is searched in Google.com, I read the following:

"Photodissociation (i.e., separation due to the energy of light) of water vapour into molecular hydrogen (H2) and molecular oxygen (O2) in the upper atmosphere allowed the hydrogen to escape and led to a progressive increase of the partial pressure of oxygen at Earth's surface."

Yet this is not widely accepted and recognized because of the Great Oxidation Event was not a progressive event. The appearance of cyanobacteria is the accepted cause of the GOE.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26924853/
https://mbio.asm.org/content/10/3/e00561-19
Do you accept this?

What you suggest is that photodissociation was turned on like a switch and that is what caused the GOE. The GOE was sudden and rapid and photodissociation doesn't fit the GOE. As it would have been very slow plus the oxidation of iron would be present in the earth's geological history before fossils of life. But oxidized iron is not in the geological record before cyanobacteria. Oxidized iron appearing in the geological record was sudden. If Earth oxygen was gradual then oxidized iron would be gradual as well. In a previous post you said, "I wouldn't expect the existence of O2 in the upper atmosphere of the primordial Earth to be recorded in the geologic record." But you should see it in the geological record with the appearance of oxidized iron as we do with the appearance of cyanobacteria. So Earth getting its oxygen through photodissociation should be rejected. Do you reject it?

[bluegreenearth]

Yet this is not widely accepted and recognized because of the Great Oxidation Event was not a progressive event. The appearance of cyanobacteria is the accepted cause of the GOE.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26924853/
https://mbio.asm.org/content/10/3/e00561-19
Do you accept this?

What you suggest is that photodissociation was turned on like a switch and that is what caused the GOE. The GOE was sudden and rapid and photodissociation doesn't fit the GOE. As it would have been very slow plus the oxidation of iron would be present in the earth's geological history before fossils of life. But oxidized iron is not in the geological record before cyanobacteria. Oxidized iron appearing in the geological record was sudden. If Earth oxygen was gradual then oxidized iron would be gradual as well. In a previous post you said, "I wouldn't expect the existence of O2 in the upper atmosphere of the primordial Earth to be recorded in the geologic record." But you should see it in the geological record with the appearance of oxidized iron as we do with the appearance of cyanobacteria. So Earth getting its oxygen through photodissociation should be rejected. Do you reject it?

Again, I would appreciate it if you would read my posts more carefully because I never suggested that photodissociation was responsible for the GOE. The emergence of cyanobacteria was most likely responsible for the GOE. Photodissociation of water vapor would have merely allowed for the formation of some O2 in the upper atmosphere while the rest of the atmosphere would have lacked O2 until the emergence of cyanobacteria.

[2timothy316]

Yet this is not widely accepted and recognized because of the Great Oxidation Event was not a progressive event. The appearance of cyanobacteria is the accepted cause of the GOE.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26924853/
https://mbio.asm.org/content/10/3/e00561-19
Do you accept this?

What you suggest is that photodissociation was turned on like a switch and that is what caused the GOE. The GOE was sudden and rapid and photodissociation doesn't fit the GOE. As it would have been very slow plus the oxidation of iron would be present in the earth's geological history before fossils of life. But oxidized iron is not in the geological record before cyanobacteria. Oxidized iron appearing in the geological record was sudden. If Earth oxygen was gradual then oxidized iron would be gradual as well. In a previous post you said, "I wouldn't expect the existence of O2 in the upper atmosphere of the primordial Earth to be recorded in the geologic record." But you should see it in the geological record with the appearance of oxidized iron as we do with the appearance of cyanobacteria. So Earth getting its oxygen through photodissociation should be rejected. Do you reject it?

Again, I would appreciate it if you would read my posts more carefully because I never suggested that photodissociation was responsible for the GOE. The emergence of cyanobacteria was most likely responsible for the GOE. Photodissociation of water vapor would have merely allowed for the formation of some O2 in the upper atmosphere while the rest of the atmosphere would have lacked O2 until the emergence of cyanobacteria.

There is no evidence of this happening though and no evidence that Earth had enough atmosphere to keep any o2 if it did. It also doesn't debunk my original point for Earth there would be no life without water and no liquid water without life. Why is this so hard for you to accept? If there was no GOE Earth's atmosphere would be similar to Venus' atmosphere. https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/20 ... -habitable

I don't know why such dogmatism for photodissociation making o2 as it doesn't debunk my original point. Let's say photodissociation happened on Venus too but Venus didn't have cyanobacteria to give Venus a stable atmosphere to save it's liquid water. Now Venus has temperatures reach 864 degrees at its surface. Whatever water Venus had is now only trace amounts of water vapor. If the same life had started on Venus as it did Earth, we'd have another Earth like planet in our solar system. It would still be very different from Earth because of it's proximity to the Sun but it wouldn't be what it is today, devoid of life and liquid water.

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #100]

High concentrations of carbon dioxide in the early atmosphere caused the lower atmosphere to become hotter. Higher temperatures in the lower atmosphere caused more liquid water in the primordial ocean to become water vapor. Water vapor eventually condensed in the atmosphere to form rain clouds. Carbon dioxide in the early atmosphere dissolved into the rainwater making it acidic enough to erode calcium-rich rocks on the continental crust. Calcium from the rocks combined with dissolved carbon dioxide in the rainwater to eventually form carbonates on the floor of the primordial ocean. The liquid water from the primordial ocean lowered the melting point of the oceanic crust allowing it to be subducted into the mantle more easily. This natural method for removing large quantities of carbon dioxide from the early atmosphere was most likely sufficient to prevent a runaway greenhouse effect.