Evidence For And Against Evolution

[Miles]

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Came across this little gem a bit ago and thought I'd share.




Thoughts?

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[We_Are_VENOM]

So, what's a kind?

Are bulldogs and chihuahuas different kinds? How about brown bears and black bears? Or grasshoppers and locusts?

Need a definition "kind," please.

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I think "kind" can be safely defined as animals of the same family or the same genus (depending on the day).

I want to say "genus", but I can compromise with defining it as animals of the same "family". No compromises after that.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Then you are in the minority because there is so much evidence to support Darwin's description that it has become a formal scientific theory. It is usually people who blindly believe ancient religious texts that don't accept evolution because it contradicts what their ancient holy books describe. They don't reject evolution for any scientific reasons, if they even bother to read up on how the theory has been confirmed over the many decades, but they reject it purely on religious grounds (ie. it contradicts the ancient myths and stories which are presented in the holy books as if they were fact). All it takes is a trip to the library, or some Googling, to get all the information you need to understand evolution at a basic level, and to see the mountains of evidence that supports it. The old religious tall tales have no such confirming evidence, yet people still believe that the stories are descriptions of actual events.

Going to the library or Googling? Why do I need to do any of those things, when I can just go to the zoo, local pet store, or get two male/female pets...and see for myself.

All I see is animals producing after their kinds, which happens to be what this "holy book" has been saying for thousands of years before modern biology and science.

[Miles]

So, what's a kind?

Are bulldogs and chihuahuas different kinds? How about brown bears and black bears? Or grasshoppers and locusts?

Need a definition "kind," please.

.

I think "kind" can be safely defined as animals of the same family or the same genus (depending on the day).

I want to say "genus", but I can compromise with defining it as animals of the same "family". No compromises after that.

Then let the evolution begin because those 5,700 kinds (families) Noah took aboard his ark would have to have evolved---parish the thought---into the 1,250,000 species we now have populating the earth. An evolutionary phenomenon that took place in just a couple of thousand years!. A 219-fold increase in species.

No way!!

Yup. God's honest truth.

You mean Noah kept and cared for 5,700 pairs of kinds, 11,400 individuals, (1 male + 1 female) aboard the ark for all forty days and forty nights?

Wellllll. . . . . . . . . . . Yup, That's what the Bible tells me so it has to be true.

So what did the animals from these families look like? I mean obviously the kind representing the bear family didn't look like any present day species of bear; a polar bear, black bear, brown bear, or giant panda. So it would have to have been an amalgam of all these bears. Right? Or was it simply a single species like the brown bear that gave rise to polar bears, black bears, sun bears, sloth bears, spectacled bears, and pandas, and then sent them scurrying to their respective homes across the earth.?

Errr . . . . . . . . . . . . .


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[DrNoGods]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #42]

Going to the library or Googling? Why do I need to do any of those things, when I can just go to the zoo, local pet store, or get two male/female pets...and see for myself.

But that gives you no perspective on time ... you'd only get a snapshot of what exists at the zoo or pet store when you visited. So you cannot answer the question or "see for myself" by going to the zoo or a pet store. Or do you think evolutionary change happens in just one generation?

All I see is animals producing after their kinds, which happens to be what this "holy book" has been saying for thousands of years before modern biology and science.

Yes ... there are lots of examples of ancient texts getting it wrong before science came along and explained things properly. Between the fossil record and the genetics work of the last several decades, evolution has been shown to be the mechanism for how life diversifies on this planet. The writers of ancient holy books could not possibly have known about this subject because they lived many centuries before the science was developed. So they described things as their limited knowledge allowed, and of course got many things wrong including this idea of "kinds."

But again, you can't conclude that dogs (or humans, or any other animal) won't evolve over time by just looking at a few generations of offspring. It took millions of years for homo sapiens to evolve from the common ancestor we share with chimpanzees and bonobos. With a 25 year generational cycle, just one million years is 40,000 generations. The only way to "see" change over that kind of time frame is via the fossil record. The zoo or a pet store won't cut it.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Miles in post #43]

Wellllll. . . . . . . . . . . Yup, That's what the Bible tells me so it has to be true.

Yes ... the single biggest problem trying to debate science and religion with someone who blindly believes only one side. Science can draw from many disciplines and accumulate evidence that can lead to viable conclusions based on that evidence. Holy books make claims without any evidence or support beyond the text within their covers, much of which can't be substantiated (or which can be definitively shown to be false, such as the Noah's flood story). Yet many people don't appreciate this contrast between science and evidence, vs. religion.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Then let the evolution begin because those 5,700 kinds (families) Noah took aboard his ark would have to have evolved---parish the thought---into the 1,250,000 species we now have populating the earth. An evolutionary phenomenon that took place in just a couple of thousand years!. A 219-fold increase in species.

No way!!

Yup. God's honest truth.

You mean Noah kept and cared for 5,700 pairs of kinds, 11,400 individuals, (1 male + 1 female) aboard the ark for all forty days and forty nights?

Wellllll. . . . . . . . . . . Yup, That's what the Bible tells me so it has to be true.

So what did the animals from these families look like? I mean obviously the kind representing the bear family didn't look like any present day species of bear; a polar bear, black bear, brown bear, or giant panda. So it would have to have been an amalgam of all these bears. Right? Or was it simply a single species like the brown bear that gave rise to polar bears, black bears, sun bears, sloth bears, spectacled bears, and pandas, and then sent them scurrying to their respective homes across the earth.?

Errr . . . . . . . . . . . . .


.

Right, it seems like an impossible feat for Noah to pull off, huh?

I mean, none of that could have possibly happened, right?

Wrong.

One thing you conveniently failed to mention is the fact that God, with all of that supernatural power, was behind the reins of the entire affair.

And as Jesus so stated in Luke 18:27, "Things which are impossible with man are possible with God".

When you have an omnipotent God orchestrating the entire affair, those little "minor" inconveniences that you mention all of a sudden becomes child's play.

That, followed by the fact that in all honesty; instead of trying to figure out how "Noah could have pulled it off", what you should concern yourself with is how life originated from nonliving material in the first place, in order to "evolve".

Deal with that first, before you meddle in alleged supernatural affairs.

[We_Are_VENOM]

But that gives you no perspective on time ...you'd only get a snapshot of what exists at the zoo or pet store when you visited. So you cannot answer the question or "see for myself" by going to the zoo or a pet store. Or do you think evolutionary change happens in just one generation?

Oh, I get...so no one living yesterday saw it happen...no one living today will see it happen...and no one living in the future will ever see it happen....yet..

"it happens".

If you don't see the con, the scam, the deceit there...then I don't know what to tell ya.

Evolution is really the only concept that I am aware of, where you can be too early and too late at the same time. Think about it, you are telling me that I am too late...because it happened soooo long ago, that I missed it.

But you are also telling me that I am too early, because it won't happen again until soooo far into the future.

So I am literally too early and too late at the same time!! It is a scam, is what it is.

Yes ... there are lots of examples of ancient texts getting it wrong before science came along and explained things properly. Between the fossil record and the genetics work of the last several decades, evolution has been shown to be the mechanism for how life diversifies on this planet. The writers of ancient holy books could not possibly have known about this subject because they lived many centuries before the science was developed. So they described things as their limited knowledge allowed, and of course got many things wrong including this idea of "kinds."

I can't speak for other religious texts/books. I can only speak for the Bible.

But again, you can't conclude that dogs (or humans, or any other animal) won't evolve over time by just looking at a few generations of offspring. It took millions of years for homo sapiens to evolve from the common ancestor we share with chimpanzees and bonobos. With a 25 year generational cycle, just one million years is 40,000 generations. The only way to "see" change over that kind of time frame is via the fossil record. The zoo or a pet store won't cut it.

So basically, "Anything can happen, given enough time". Gotcha.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #47]

Oh, I get...so no one living yesterday saw it happen...no one living today will see it happen...and no one living in the future will ever see it happen....yet..

No ... you missed the point entirely. We have the fossil record so we can indeed see what happened in the past without having to be there ourselves. It is irrelevant whether or not there were humans around to see dinosaurs wandering around and evolving, the fossil record provides direct evidence that we can investigate today. As for the future, we can confidently assume that if animals and plants evolved over time in the past (from the fossil record, and genetics), they are likely to continue doing that in the future. It is a logical assumption.

If you don't see the con, the scam, the deceit there...then I don't know what to tell ya.

No need to tell me anything. There is no con, scam or deceit. Just scientists analyzing evidence for some 150 years now that support the theory. It is really very simple and straightforward ... if you aren't blinded by religious tall tales.

Think about it, you are telling me that I am too late...because it happened soooo long ago, that I missed it.

Nope ... see above. We have the fossil record so we didn't "miss it." And the fossil record extends back several billion years through to modern times. There are certainly many gaps because fossils are rare and there is no complete record of every living thing that ever existed on Earth. But it is sufficient to outline the big picture of how modern plants and animals came to be, and in many cases there are nearly complete histories. Plenty of data there to support the theory of evolution, and none yet that falsifies it. Or do you know something the rest of the world doesn't?

I can't speak for other religious texts/books. I can only speak for the Bible.

It is just another ancient "holy" book written by humans who invented yet another god among the thousands of other gods humans have invented.

So basically, "Anything can happen, given enough time". Gotcha.

What does the fossil record say about this? From single-cell organisms to modern animals and plants in around 4 billions years. Not bad, and some things do take a very long time. I doubt that "anything" can happen, but what has happened has been pretty remarkable.

[Miles]

Then let the evolution begin because those 5,700 kinds (families) Noah took aboard his ark would have to have evolved---parish the thought---into the 1,250,000 species we now have populating the earth. An evolutionary phenomenon that took place in just a couple of thousand years!. A 219-fold increase in species.

No way!!

Yup. God's honest truth.

You mean Noah kept and cared for 5,700 pairs of kinds, 11,400 individuals, (1 male + 1 female) aboard the ark for all forty days and forty nights?

Wellllll. . . . . . . . . . . Yup, That's what the Bible tells me so it has to be true.

So what did the animals from these families look like? I mean obviously the kind representing the bear family didn't look like any present day species of bear; a polar bear, black bear, brown bear, or giant panda. So it would have to have been an amalgam of all these bears. Right? Or was it simply a single species like the brown bear that gave rise to polar bears, black bears, sun bears, sloth bears, spectacled bears, and pandas, and then sent them scurrying to their respective homes across the earth.?

Errr . . . . . . . . . . . . .


.

Right, it seems like an impossible feat for Noah to pull off, huh?

I mean, none of that could have possibly happened, right?

Wrong.

One thing you conveniently failed to mention is the fact that God, with all of that supernatural power, was behind the reins of the entire affair.

And as Jesus so stated in Luke 18:27, "Things which are impossible with man are possible with God".

When you have an omnipotent God orchestrating the entire affair, those little "minor" inconveniences that you mention all of a sudden becomes child's play.

So, instead of going to all the bother of having Noah and family construct a boat, gather representatives of every living organism on earth, including mushrooms, moss, and microbes; then flooding the entire world just to get rid of the relatively few sinners on earth, why not simply kill them off at the outset and be done with the whole rigamarole of ark---animal and plant gathering---and flood waters? To me this is a pretty bone-headed approach to a problem that could be resolved by a simple ZAP of his finger.

................................................

That, followed by the fact that in all honesty; instead of trying to figure out how "Noah could have pulled it off", what you should concern yourself with is how life originated from nonliving material in the first place, in order to "evolve".

You're confusing concern with incredulity.

Deal with that first, before you meddle in alleged supernatural affairs.

Ouch! Seems like I've inadvertently poured water on someone's sand castle here: "Stop playing in MY sandbox and just go home."

.

[brunumb]

One thing you conveniently failed to mention is the fact that God, with all of that supernatural power, was behind the reins of the entire affair.

And as Jesus so stated in Luke 18:27, "Things which are impossible with man are possible with God".

When you have an omnipotent God orchestrating the entire affair, those little "minor" inconveniences that you mention all of a sudden becomes child's play.

So your answer to all of the insurmountable problems associated with the great flood amounts to nothing more than God-magic. Why would an allegedly intelligent being resort to an impossible method to eradicate a few pesky humans and then have to prop it all up with countless miracles. That aside, where is your evidence that God did anything behind the scene anyway. It's pretty easy to make up whatever you like to fill in the plot holes but that doesn't mean that any of it must be true.

That, followed by the fact that in all honesty; instead of trying to figure out how "Noah could have pulled it off", what you should concern yourself with is how life originated from nonliving material in the first place, in order to "evolve".

And when you can't provide satisfactory answers to the problematic questions regarding the flood, create a diversion by switching to another issue. Problem solved.