JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[Red Wolf]

Did Jesus’ “Main Man� Peter believe that Jesus was God?
Let’s look!
Matthew 16:13-17
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?� 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.� 15 He *said to them, “But who do you say that I am?� 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.� 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Jesus asks the question….Who do you say I am?
Peter answers….. You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Jesus praises Peter’s answer and affirms that Peter is correct.

We know for sure that Peter is correct because Jesus says “flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.�
Peter’s correct answer came directly from God.

Jesus is not God

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 51 by Red Wolf]

You are agreeing with Jesus himself. Many times he said outright that he worshipped his Father (by calling Him "my God" ). So, therefore, Jesus has a God that he worships as the only true God.

John 20:17
Revelation 3:12
John 17:3


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[onewithhim]

Psalm 83:18, KJV

What do y'all think about this?


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[onewithhim]

Psalm 83:18, KJV

What do y'all think about this?


.

[mitty]

[Replying to post 51 by Red Wolf]

You are agreeing with Jesus himself. Many times he said outright that he worshipped his Father (by calling Him "my God" ). So, therefore, Jesus has a God that he worships as the only true God.

John 20:17
Revelation 3:12
John 17:3


.

And alas his god ignored him when he asked for help while he was being executed by the Romans for sedition and claiming to be the Jewish king (Matt 27:46).

[CrazyBibleG]

Hi there

I'd like to come at this from a totally different angle. What does it mean to be 'God'? For this answer, I turn straight to the Hebrew Tanakh and the Elohim. If by 'God', Christians mean that of Gen 1:1, or the specific Israelite Elohim, YHVH, then we can glean a wealth of information about these Elohim, their character and nature. Some of these attributes include the fact that there are many Elohim, they are biological, they procreate, they eat, they move around, they interact with humans and so forth.

So the question is really, 'is Jesus an Elohim'? If you believe the story of Jesus birth in Luke, then you could say yes, because of the similar narration motif to significant birth stories found in the Hebrew Tanakh such as Sarah's conception of Isaac by the intervention of YHVH, or Sampson's conception by the intervention of a Malakh of YHVH, or Ruth's conception given to her by YHVH himself. There are plenty of references to the 'sons of Elohim' in the Tankah.

There are two possibilities here. Either the New Testament birth narrative of Jesus is a copycat from the Hebrew Bible stories like this where an Elohim gives conception to a human woman to create a hybrid Elohim/human or, an Elohim really did inseminate a human woman just like they did in the Tanakh stories. Mary could, and it is indeed claimed by the Gospel writer, have conceived from direct intervention from Highest or 'Hypsistos'. This 'Hightest' God directly maps be the 'El Elyon' or Most High God (Elohim) (see Ps 82:6). The end of Luke 1:35 states that Mary's child, Jesus, would be the son of 'Theos', the equivalent divine category of Elohim - aka God.

So great, Jesus is an Elohim and indeed the son of El Elyon himself according to Luke 1:35. Unfortunately, now we have opened a can of worms because the implications of this call into question the foundational theological claims of the Christian faith. Personally, I think it is better if you say Jesus is not God.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 51 by Red Wolf]

You are agreeing with Jesus himself. Many times he said outright that he worshipped his Father (by calling Him "my God" ). So, therefore, Jesus has a God that he worships as the only true God.

John 20:17
Revelation 3:12
John 17:3


.

And alas his god ignored him when he asked for help while he was being executed by the Romans for sedition and claiming to be the Jewish king (Matt 27:46).

I see what you're saying, but we, as Bible believers, have to understand that God Almighty Jehovah had to hold back on rescuing His Son because His Son had to die at some point---to become a propitiatory sacrifice for the obliteration of mankind's sins (which they unfairly inherited from Adam because he couldn't pass on perfection to his children because he had become imperfect because he rebelled). It undoubtedly pained Jehovah tremendously, but He let His Son die so that justice could be fulfilled. An eye for an eye. A perfect man in place of the previously perfect Adam. Jesus knew, also, that his Father had to let him die. He knew why his Father had "forsaken" him.


.

[onewithhim]

Hi there

I'd like to come at this from a totally different angle. What does it mean to be 'God'? For this answer, I turn straight to the Hebrew Tanakh and the Elohim. If by 'God', Christians mean that of Gen 1:1, or the specific Israelite Elohim, YHVH, then we can glean a wealth of information about these Elohim, their character and nature. Some of these attributes include the fact that there are many Elohim, they are biological, they procreate, they eat, they move around, they interact with humans and so forth.

First of all, "what does it mean to be 'God'?" Neither Hebrew nor Greek have "capital" nor "lower-case" letters, as I'm sure you have observed. So "God" is not capitalized, compared to other "small" letters. The title "god" can be given to many things. Whatever men decide to worship, or, place above all else. "Elohim" has been the title given to angels, to pagan gods, and to men, and does NOT refer ONLY to Almighty God.

Paul wrote: "For though there be that are called gods,...as there be gods many, and lords many, but to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things..." (I Corinthians 8:5,6, KJV)

So it's clear that Jesus' disciples realized that there are "gods many," or, "many gods" that men contrive, but there is just one TRUE God, the Father.

Jesus could be called a "god," as John wrote at John 1:1, but this did not mean that he was the Almighty God. As mentioned, "gods" can be men, such as the Scriptures call judges at Psalm 82:1, and Jesus referred to that at John 10:34,35 when the Jews wrongly accused him of making himself "God." (KJV)

So "god" can mean just about anything, but usually it refers to an individual that is greatly respected and/or revered by the people, someone with power and authority and of great importance. Pagans felt that way about Dagon who, incidentally, was a single god and not a trinity or other multiplicity.


.

[polonius]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

RESPOPNSE: Please note that these were written by "John" in 95 AD about a decade after the first three gospels which claim that Jesus was the "Messiah." The Messiah was a man, not divine. Look it up.

[NoReligionPlease]

John Chapter 8 is an important chapter and is be read and understood as a single discourse that is divided into five sections:

Section 1 – Jesus goes to Mount Olive and is tempted by confronting him with the adulterous woman he didn’t dispute but asked the one who was without sin to cast the first stone. No one would lift a stone and all left.
Section 2 - I Am the Light of the World and you are not.
Section 3 - The Truth Will Set You Free – He tells the believing Jews to continue in his word. But tells those who want to kill him that their Father is the Devil and not Abraham and that “Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin� which goes back to the adulterous woman confrontation.
Section 4 – No Abraham is our Father but it is your Father who is the Devil.
Section 5 - Before Abraham Was, I Am – Verse 58 is the punch line to this whole discourse.

So what does Jesus say in verse 58 based on a little knowledge of the scriptures.

Jesus being 33 years old in the last five words in verse 58 states the punch line to Chapter 8. He says he was before Abraham came into being using the 2nd Aorist Tense and knew Abraham. Jesus (Noun) in the Nominative Case emphatically declared “I� (Pronoun) also in the Nominative Case which in Greek grammar means “Jesus� and “I� are the same person. Jesus states "I am" (G1510 (eimí)) in the Present Tense declaring His eternal self-existent life.

No wonder the Jews in verse 59 tried to immediately kill him after he made this statement by taking up stones to cast at him which was the punishment for Blasphemy in the Mosaic Law. This event was in the temple and not just in the street somewhere.

Greek Meaning Syntax Order an English Speaker can understand:
(Strong’s number: H = Hebrew and G = Greek word) - (Part of Speech: Verb, Noun etc.) (Transliteration of Hebrew or Greek word letters to English letters: Example: Greek word πιστε�ω to English pisteuó ) (Phonetic Spelling and Pronunciation in English (pist-yoo'-o)): (Stem: the basic meaning of the H or G original word “definition�) (Usage). Below this is the Grammer (inflections) of that word in that verse.

Joh 8:58 Jesus (G2424) said unto them, Verily, verily, I say (G3004) unto you, Before (G4250) Abraham was (G1096), I (G1473) am (G1510).
G2424 - (Noun) Iésous (ee-ay-sooce'): Jesus or Joshua, the name of the Messiah
Usage: Jesus; the Greek form of Joshua; Jesus, son of Eliezer; Jesus, surnamed Justus.
Case: Nominative (subject; predicate nominative)
Number: Singular
Gender: Masculine
G3004 - (Verb) legó leg'-o): to say (denoting speech in progress), (a) I say, speak; I mean, mention, tell, (b) I call, name, especially in the pass., (c) I tell, command.)
Tense: second Aorist (Punctiliar (once and only) action (the time can be past, present, or future but is generally past) Note: Aorist and Second Aorist have the same Tense meaning.
Voice: Active (Indicates that the subject produces the action)
Mood: Indicative (Expresses that which is actual, factual, or real from the speaker's point of view)
Person: third [he/she/it]
G4250 - (Adverb) prin (prin): before (formerly, before.)
G1096 - (Verb) ginomai (ghin'-om-ahee): to come into being, to happen, to become (I come into being, am born, become, come about, happen.)
Tense: second Aorist (Punctiliar (once and only) action (the time can be past, present, or future but is generally past)
Voice: middle Deponent (Indicates that the subject (Jesus) initiates the action and participates in the results of the action)
Mood: Infinitive (Express acts, situations and in general "states of affairs" that are depended on another verb form, English example: The simple form, as, speak, go, hear)
G1473 - (Personal Pronoun) egó (eg-o'): I (only expressed when emphatic (I, the first-person pronoun.)
Person: first
Case: Nominative (subject; predicate nominative)
Number: Singular
G1510 - (Verb) eimi (i-mee'): I exist, I am (I am, exist.)
Tense: Present (Continually takes place in the present which is not limited by time)
Voice: Active (Indicates that the subject produces the action)
Mood: Indicative (Expresses that which is actual, factual, or real from the speaker's point of view)
Person: first
Number: Singular

The Bible wasn’t written in English, it was written in Hebrew (Old Testament) and Koine Greek (New Testament). But you don’t need to be a Hebrew or Greek scholar as any 6th grader can confirm if what you are told is what is really said in the Hebrew or Greek with the tools we have today.