Who's the terrorist?

[Nirvana-Eld]

Ok I have been thouroughly disgusted by the American Media and their coverage of this latest war in the Middle East. So, naturally, I turn to you for your opinions.

Given the circumstances under which Israel has invaded the Gaza Strip and Lebanon and the manner in which they are conducting the invasion and the tactics used, I would say that Israel is in fact terroristic towards the civilians in the respective areas.

I won't dive into too much detail yet, I would rather see your opinions first and hopefully start a good discussion if not a heated debate.

[Metatron]

As to holding Israel to a different standard of morality than the surrounding Arab nations, it is no such matter. You don't see Palestinians in Jordan or Syria or Lebanon demanding the overthrow of those governments, even though the Palestinians in Jordan and Syria and Lebanon are probably just as poorly off as those in Israel.

Sorry to disagree but the Palestinians were a major issue in Jordan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan

Refugees and Black September

The 1967 war led to a dramatic increase in the number of Palestinians, especially from the West Bank, living in Jordan. Its Palestinian refugee population 700,000 in 1966 grew by another 300,000 from the West Bank. The period following the 1967 war saw an upsurge in the power and importance of Palestinian resistance elements (fedayeen) in Jordan. The heavily armed fedayeen constituted a growing threat to the sovereignty and security of the Hashemite state, and open fighting erupted in June 1970. The battle in which Palestinian fighters from various Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) groups were expelled from Jordan is commonly known as Black September.

Other Arab governments attempted to work out a peaceful solution, but by September, continuing fedayeen actions in Jordan including the destruction of three international airliners hijacked by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and held in the desert east of Amman prompted the government to take action to regain control over its territory and population. In the ensuing heavy fighting, a Syrian tank force took up positions in northern Jordan to support the fedayeen but subsequently retreated. By 22 September, Arab foreign ministers meeting at Cairo had arranged a cease-fire beginning the following day. Sporadic violence continued, however, until Jordanian forces led by Habis Al-Majali won a decisive victory over the fedayeen in July 1971, expelling them from the country.

Also the Palestinians under the PLO used to have a major presence in Lebanon, using southern Lebanon in much the same way that Hezbollah does today. They were a major player in the Lebanese civil war and provoked several Israeli incursions into Lebanon.

To the best of my knowledge, the Palestinians in Syria have not dared to try anything against the Assad regime. They had the suppression of the Muslim Brotherhood to look to for an example. (In 1982, the Syrian government turned their artillery on their own city of Hama, leveling part of the city and killing thousands of people in order to suppress the Muslim Brotherhood.)

[achilles12604]

Ok I have been thouroughly disgusted by the American Media and their coverage of this latest war in the Middle East. So, naturally, I turn to you for your opinions.

Given the circumstances under which Israel has invaded the Gaza Strip and Lebanon and the manner in which they are conducting the invasion and the tactics used, I would say that Israel is in fact terroristic towards the civilians in the respective areas.

I won't dive into too much detail yet, I would rather see your opinions first and hopefully start a good discussion if not a heated debate.

I'd say that some of the greatest terrorists ever to grace the earth did a fine job in what they were trying to do. After all we have a country called the US of A right? They succeeded!

The measure of a terrorist or a patriot is left to history, and even history can't make up its mind.

[Metatron]

Ok I have been thouroughly disgusted by the American Media and their coverage of this latest war in the Middle East. So, naturally, I turn to you for your opinions.

Given the circumstances under which Israel has invaded the Gaza Strip and Lebanon and the manner in which they are conducting the invasion and the tactics used, I would say that Israel is in fact terroristic towards the civilians in the respective areas.

I won't dive into too much detail yet, I would rather see your opinions first and hopefully start a good discussion if not a heated debate.

I'd say that some of the greatest terrorists ever to grace the earth did a fine job in what they were trying to do. After all we have a country called the US of A right? They succeeded!

The measure of a terrorist or a patriot is left to history, and even history can't make up its mind.

Though in defense of our founding fathers, I can't recall Thomas Paine blowing himself up in the House of Commons or Samuel Adams taking out a bunch of school children in Hyde Park.

[omartarik2006]

Well , try to give 3 billion dollars of aid to the inhabitant palestinians , as the US does every year for Israel , and don't forget to support them with a Nuclear Bomb ,thanks ,American apache , F16 , M16....and let them solve their problems.
Or you can choose the simple solution :give the inhabitant the land of their fathers , and if the europeans blame themself for all the atrocities that the Jews suffered ...you know Holocaust ,Inquisition and stuffs they can find a land for them.
By the way Israelis started to buy lands on the Moon .
You can guess why the US has so much interest for the M.East since the Oil crisis of 1973.

[Noddy]

I like the Amusement park idea: "Land O' God" maybe? It seems that the Palestinians have had more than one chance to settle the whole thing since the state of Israel was created (with a little help from Israeli terrorists), but the ruling Arab countries surrounding Israel have convinced the Palestinians to remain in their festering refugee camp/ghettoes, primarily to provide cannon fodder for their own anti Israeli agendas. Anyone familiar with world history knows that just about everyone has come from somewhere else, the Roman empire collapsed in large part because of this. The palestinians had a valid grievance when they were forcibly moved off of their land, but that was fifty/sixty years ago and THEY ARE STILL LIVING IN REFUGEE CAMPS! You might as well ask when will the Americans be leaving the USA so the Indians can have it back. Or how about giving France back to the Gauls? Britain back to the Welsh? Maybe we should deport all of the Protestant Irish from Northern Ireland? (The irony there is that most of the protestants came from Scotland, which was invaded and taken over by the Irish around 800 A.D.)
There is a point at which railing against the vicissitudes of fate becomes the self absorbed whining of a disfunctional culture. The Irish (IRA) discovered this in the last few years. The Palestinians have become a welfare people, not the most auspicious goal, and the neighboring Arab states don't seem very keen on taking them in. The Palestinian people are devolving: they used to be the artisans and intellectual elite in the middle east: no more. Dennis Miller stated that if all of the Arab world was a football field, the area being fought over would be the size of a book of matches. Look what the Palestinians have done with Gaza! NOTHING!!
So. Arab cynical hypocrisy: Palestinian homicidal intransigence, Israeli self righteousness. Maybe Cephus was right.

[WelshBoy]

You're misrepresenting the Palestinian's plight slightly Noddy, since the Israeli's are very successfully frustrating any attempts at developing the isolated fragments of land they have been so graciously allowed ( ). Bulldozers regularly raze Palestinian buildings, and the Israelis stop skilled workers from moving by closing checkpoints, and are bankrupting the nation.

To make out that the Palestinians have been sitting around the whole time is a touch naiive.

[Noddy]

I'm not sure that the Israelis can "bankrupt a nation" that relies on the largesse of the rest of the world for it's daily existence. It's my understanding that the Israeli's destruction of buildings is because those buildings were being used for making bombs or firing rockets at Israel. As for restricting the movement of Palestinians, one can't really fault them when that's their only means to prevent the suicide bombers/terrorists from getting through. It's also a punitive action to pressure the Palestinians to give up supporting terrorism. Let's not forget the tens of thousands of Arab-Israeli citizens either.
I tend to support the Israeli side for a number of reasons.
Munich Olympics: let's not forget it was Palestinians (Black September) who murdered the Israeli athletes.
The 1948, 1967 and 1973 Arab Israeli wars, in which the combined might of the Arab world attacked Israel repeatedly. And was beaten soundly each time. (I just love an underdog)
The avowed goal of the Arab/Muslim world to obliterate Israel. Remember, it was the British mandate in Palestine after the defeat of the Ottoman empire that created the states of Israel and Palestine.
Perhaps I am naive, I do not claim to be a Middle East expert, but what I see is one nation, despite enormous odds against it, creating a democracy in an area of the world where dictators rule and loyalty is not to the state, but to one's clan or tribe.
You imply I am naive, but you do not offer any enlightenment as to exactly what the Palestinians have been doing with themselves for the last sixty years other than killing the Israelis or each other. I personally am at a loss as to what else they do with their time.
It has been reliably reported that Hezbollah repeatedly used human shields when confronting the Israelis in Lebanon, I don't think this is particularly nice of them. It isn't because they are cowards: it's because they can claim in all honesty that the Israeli soldiers killed civilians instead of the militia. This bespeaks a certain cold ruthlessness. It also appears that a lot of people think that an attack and kidnapping of active duty Israeli soldiers at a guard post is somehow a civil police matter. It. is. an. act. of. war.
Is it possible that world opinion is turning against Israel? Could it be that we hold them to a higher standard of moral behaviour than, say, the Arabs? After all we really can't expect a culture that rejoices in self immolation, puts underwear on goats and has laws forbidding the sexual display of fruit to conform to our western mores, can we? Or are we attempting to appease the Arabs by denigrating the Zionists?
Perhaps, since the numbers of the last generation to witness the horror of the Holocaust is rapidly approaching zero, we can gear up for another round of Jew-baiting, accusations of Blood libel and pogroms?
A terrorist is someone who indiscriminately kills innocent non-combatants for the purpose of spreading fear and paranoia in order to further a political/religious agenda.
As we debate, British, American, Danish, Canadian and a bunch of other nation's troops are in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban. Civilians get killed, this is a sad fact of life, especially in an unconventional war where one side does not obey the rules of combat or wears a uniform. But this doesn't make the U.N. soldiers terrorists or monsters. They are human and stuff happens.
While I have been less than impressed by some of Israel's actions, it has to be understood that these people live in a state of siege, and cannot be expected to adopt the philosophy of, say, Spain which essentially rolled over and played appeaser after the bombings there. The English were stunned to find that born and bred citizens were involved in the bombings in London, and are still undergoing a paradigm shift in their relationship to muslim immigrants, and what security measures should be taken to counter the threat from Islamists.
Perhaps our Arab brethren could show a little more public concern and disavow the followers of extreme fundamentalist Islam, but I suspect that Islam is not as peace loving as it's apologists would have us believe.
I know of no country on earth that would willingly open up it's borders to a homicidal enemy intent on it's destruction. Any that did so in the past no longer exist.

Ok, I'm finished.

[Goat]

I'm not sure that the Israelis can "bankrupt a nation" that relies on the largesse of the rest of the world for it's daily existence. It's my understanding that the Israeli's destruction of buildings is because those buildings were being used for making bombs or firing rockets at Israel. As for restricting the movement of Palestinians, one can't really fault them when that's their only means to prevent the suicide bombers/terrorists from getting through. It's also a punitive action to pressure the Palestinians to give up supporting terrorism. Let's not forget the tens of thousands of Arab-Israeli citizens either.
I tend to support the Israeli side for a number of reasons.
Munich Olympics: let's not forget it was Palestinians (Black September) who murdered the Israeli athletes.
The 1948, 1967 and 1973 Arab Israeli wars, in which the combined might of the Arab world attacked Israel repeatedly. And was beaten soundly each time. (I just love an underdog)
The avowed goal of the Arab/Muslim world to obliterate Israel. Remember, it was the British mandate in Palestine after the defeat of the Ottoman empire that created the states of Israel and Palestine.
Perhaps I am naive, I do not claim to be a Middle East expert, but what I see is one nation, despite enormous odds against it, creating a democracy in an area of the world where dictators rule and loyalty is not to the state, but to one's clan or tribe.
You imply I am naive, but you do not offer any enlightenment as to exactly what the Palestinians have been doing with themselves for the last sixty years other than killing the Israelis or each other. I personally am at a loss as to what else they do with their time.
It has been reliably reported that Hezbollah repeatedly used human shields when confronting the Israelis in Lebanon, I don't think this is particularly nice of them. It isn't because they are cowards: it's because they can claim in all honesty that the Israeli soldiers killed civilians instead of the militia. This bespeaks a certain cold ruthlessness. It also appears that a lot of people think that an attack and kidnapping of active duty Israeli soldiers at a guard post is somehow a civil police matter. It. is. an. act. of. war.
Is it possible that world opinion is turning against Israel? Could it be that we hold them to a higher standard of moral behaviour than, say, the Arabs? After all we really can't expect a culture that rejoices in self immolation, puts underwear on goats and has laws forbidding the sexual display of fruit to conform to our western mores, can we? Or are we attempting to appease the Arabs by denigrating the Zionists?
Perhaps, since the numbers of the last generation to witness the horror of the Holocaust is rapidly approaching zero, we can gear up for another round of Jew-baiting, accusations of Blood libel and pogroms?
A terrorist is someone who indiscriminately kills innocent non-combatants for the purpose of spreading fear and paranoia in order to further a political/religious agenda.
As we debate, British, American, Danish, Canadian and a bunch of other nation's troops are in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban. Civilians get killed, this is a sad fact of life, especially in an unconventional war where one side does not obey the rules of combat or wears a uniform. But this doesn't make the U.N. soldiers terrorists or monsters. They are human and stuff happens.
While I have been less than impressed by some of Israel's actions, it has to be understood that these people live in a state of siege, and cannot be expected to adopt the philosophy of, say, Spain which essentially rolled over and played appeaser after the bombings there. The English were stunned to find that born and bred citizens were involved in the bombings in London, and are still undergoing a paradigm shift in their relationship to muslim immigrants, and what security measures should be taken to counter the threat from Islamists.
Perhaps our Arab brethren could show a little more public concern and disavow the followers of extreme fundamentalist Islam, but I suspect that Islam is not as peace loving as it's apologists would have us believe.
I know of no country on earth that would willingly open up it's borders to a homicidal enemy intent on it's destruction. Any that did so in the past no longer exist.

Ok, I'm finished.

I am not sure if I 100% agree with that. I do acknowledge that there is two sides to every story. I think , with 100% hindsite, that the way that Israel was formed was not the best way. It definately shows the unintended consequences of 'nation building' , much the same way that building Iraq by the British around the same time period lead to the current situation.

However, the past is past, and we have to deal with the present. The current situtation is that Hamas is trying to cause death and destruction upon Israel, and Israel is reacting by imposing restriction and hardships on the Palistinines, which in turn encourages Hamas to cause death and destruction on Israel. This was the same situation that Ireland was in with the IRA and England.

When Ireland's economy improved from a very high unemployment to one of the most productive economies in Europe, the violence took a sharp decrease. That is how that particular cycle of violence was broken.

Can the cycle of violence between Israel and Palistine be broken the same way? It is hard to say. A lot of the 'aid' that was given to the palistinines ended up in private hands, or was diverted to Hamas for their activities. Somehow, a way has to be found to increase the prosperity of the average palistinine and to bypass the corruption that diverted the aid to other purposes.

[Noddy]

However, the past is past, and we have to deal with the present. The current situtation is that Hamas is trying to cause death and destruction upon Israel, and Israel is reacting by imposing restriction and hardships on the Palistinines, which in turn encourages Hamas to cause death and destruction on Israel. This was the same situation that Ireland was in with the IRA and England.

When Ireland's economy improved from a very high unemployment to one of the most productive economies in Europe, the violence took a sharp decrease. That is how that particular cycle of violence was broken.

Can the cycle of violence between Israel and Palistine be broken the same way? It is hard to say. A lot of the 'aid' that was given to the palistinines ended up in private hands, or was diverted to Hamas for their activities. Somehow, a way has to be found to increase the prosperity of the average palistinine and to bypass the corruption that diverted the aid to other purposes.

(I hope this turns out to be a paste of Goat's reply.)

Right on the money! Problem is, as you noted, a LOT of the money that has been donated to the Palestinians has ended up in Madam Arafat's Swiss bank accounts, courtesy of her late husband, the remainder going into various Fatah members Swiss bank accounts, which is one reason they lost the election to Hamas. A lack of credibility has seriously impaired Fatah's standing.
As I noted previously, the Palestinians say they want a state, but their loyalty seems to br given to individual strong men, essentially warlords, with their own personal militias. Abbas, while being the most logical (and statesmanlike) successor to Arafat does not have the charisma necessary to weld the disparate groups into one whole. I don't know how many different anti-Israeli groups there are in the Palestinian controlled areas, but I know it's considerably more that the two mentioned. Until the Palestinian people decide what they really want (and the destruction of Israel cannot be one of them) they will remain in limbo.