"Take my word for it, or his, or this book"

[Zzyzx]

Most of us probably know better than to believe everything said or written. If someone tells us they can fly by flapping their arms, our response is likely disbelief and a request that they ‘show me’. If they refuse to demonstrate or fail in flapping, we regard their claim as false. Agreed?

If a person claims to have come back to life after being dead for days none of us are likely to believe the claim unless it could be verified. Right?

If someone writes that fifty years ago a long-dead person came back to life and flew away into the sky, what would be your / our likely reaction? Would we be convinced if they say ‘many saw him’?

What would it take to convince us that the tale was true?

[JehovahsWitness]

. The Lord God acknowledges the name Jesus and Hesus, ....

You cant find anywhere from the words uttered by Almighty God verbatim in his communications where he verbatim says "my name is Jesus and Hesus", that's just your opinion.

Not all that God uttered to us was written.

So you don't deny that you cannot find anywhere in your writtings where God uttered the words "My name is Jesus".... let me get this straight, there exist no written record of God EVER saying "My name is Jesus" all we have is your imperfect recollection from an experience 20 years ago interpreted by your family and posted on the internet? For all we know he said "My friend is Jesus" and you are just recollecting it wrongly. This is a massive "FAIL" on your part or rather on the part of the wannabe impersonator... he failed to state his name catagorically and failed to instruct you to write his statement for humanity.

On the other hand we DO have the verbatim written and testified record from the Prophet Isaiah. Isaiah quoted Almighty God himself ....

“Ako si Yahweh; iyan ang aking pangalan.” — Isaias 42:8a

* World English Bible — “I am **Yahweh**. That is my name.”

* Legacy Standard Bible — “I am **Yahweh**, that is My name”

* Jerusalem Bible — “I am **Yahweh**, that is my name!”

* New Jerusalem Bible — “I am **Yahweh**, that is my name!”

* Lexham English Bible — “I am **Yahweh**; that is my name”

* The Scriptures — “I am **יהוה**, that is My Name”

* HalleluYah Scriptures — “I am **יהוה**, that is My Name”

For your information, the Lord Jesus taught us many times that His name is Jesus ....

So you SAY ... in your personal imperfect words from your imperfect memory of 20 year old events... humans are weak our minds play tricks on us, and you are not God. So to sum up, we have your imperfectly remembered personal words compareed to the written words of the Almighty God through the proven Prophet Isaiah.

My question to you are : ARE YOU A PROPHET?

[OneJack]

You cant find anywhere from the words uttered by Almighty God verbatim in his communications where he verbatim says "my name is Jesus and Hesus", that's just your opinion.

Not all that God uttered to us was written.

So you don't deny that you cannot find anywhere in your writtings where God uttered the words "My name is Jesus".... let me get this straight, there exist no written record of God EVER saying "My name is Jesus" all we have is your imperfect recollection from an experience 20 years ago interpreted by your family and posted on the internet? For all we know he said "My friend is Jesus" and you are just recollecting it wrongly. This is a massive "FAIL" on your part or rather on the part of the wannabe impersonator... he failed to state his name catagorically and failed to instruct you to write his statement for humanity.

On the other hand we DO have the verbatim written and testified record from the Prophet Isaiah. Isaiah quoted Almighty God himself ....

“Ako si Yahweh; iyan ang aking pangalan.” — Isaias 42:8a

* World English Bible — “I am **Yahweh**. That is my name.”

* Legacy Standard Bible — “I am **Yahweh**, that is My name”

* Jerusalem Bible — “I am **Yahweh**, that is my name!”

* New Jerusalem Bible — “I am **Yahweh**, that is my name!”

* Lexham English Bible — “I am **Yahweh**; that is my name”

* The Scriptures — “I am **יהוה**, that is My Name”

* HalleluYah Scriptures — “I am **יהוה**, that is My Name”

For your information, the Lord Jesus taught us many times that His name is Jesus ....

So you SAY ... in your personal imperfect words from your imperfect memory of 20 year old events... humans are weak our minds play tricks on us, and you are not God. So to sum up, we have your imperfectly remembered personal words compareed to the written words of the Almighty God through the proven Prophet Isaiah.

My question to you are : ARE YOU A PROPHET?

I could respond appropriately to your question if you told me what a prophet is in your perception.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #419]

viewtopic.php?p=1187833#p1187833

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to tam in post #395]

You 'think' you know why, but you 'think' wrong.

I meant exactly what I said - no more, no less.

No need in us arguing about this. You can claim what you wish, but I am not buying it in the least.

You put "complete" in quotations, so you might need to explain what you mean.

I have the word in quotations because it is the exact word Paul used when referring to the scriptures, in that the scriptures "are able to make the man of God complete, thoroughly equipped for EVERY good work." So then, according to the Apostle Paul, who is an apostle of Jesus Christ, "the scriptures are able to make us complete, thoroughly equipped, for every good work" which means there is nothing left out. This means Paul, who we know heard from Jesus, says that the scripture is all we need to be complete, thoroughly (which means completely) for, not just a few good works, and not for some good works, but for EVERY good work. On the other hand, all we have is your claim to hear from Jesus directly, with absolutely no evidence in the least that this is the case. The question is, do we take the word of one we know for certain encountered The Risen Christ alive after death? Or do we take your word for it?

Just taking it as it is though - I have to say no

We all know without a doubt you would have to say no, because you have no other choice. I mean, why in the world are you acting as if you are having to think about it? You have put yourself in a place where you do not have the luxury of agreeing with Paul.

I would also say that even Paul did not believe what you are interpreting from his words.

Oh really? By all means, please do explain to the audience you are playing to, exactly what Paul meant when he said,

"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Allow me to explain to your audience, that you admit yourself not to be able to interpret from the Bible. I am just being sure that your audience is aware of the fact that you will be totally dependent upon your direct line to Jesus in order to give us the correct interpretation. What this means is, my interpretation of what Paul has to say here is, we do not need to seek anything other than what God has supplied in scripture, in order to be "complete, thoroughly equipped for EVERY good work," meaning leaving NOTHING out. The fact is this is not "my interpretation." Rather, it is the only interpretation there can be, and I am certain your audience will be able to see this, because it is pretty plain and simple as to what Paul is saying.

Now we will have to wait on how Jesus interprets what Paul had to say, because Tammy claims not to be able to interpret scripture, and "takes all scripture with a grain of salt" until, or unless Jesus reveals to her the meaning. So then, audience, if Jesus does not intervene and give Tammy the correct interpretation, then we are out of luck, and simply have to take what Paul says, "with a grain of salt." However, your audience should keep in mind that you cannot afford for Paul to be saying what he is clearly saying concerning scripture, and so will be forced to attempt to make it say what you would prefer it to say, in order to hold on to your fantasy.

Paul needed Christ.

As we all do! However, simply because we all need Christ just like Paul, does not in any way whatsoever translate into, we will all hear from Christ just like Paul. How in the world have you come to such a conclusion? How could you possibly think that since Paul needed Christ, and we need Christ, that this would mean that it is a necessity that we need to hear from Jesus, since Paul heard from Jesus? Your audience should also keep in mind that Paul would agree that he needed Christ, and he would also agree that we all need Christ. However, Paul instructs Timothy that scripture would be all he needed in order to have all of Christ, and Paul never even suggested in all of his letters that any of his audiences would ever hear from Jesus directly. This brings me to another question.

If we were all to hear from Jesus directly, then why was there a need for Paul, and the rest of the apostles to go out into all the world, preaching the gospel and planting Churches? Next, why were Paul, and the other apostles put in authority over these Churches which they planted, and why would there be a need in Paul, and or any of the other apostles writing letters of instruction to these Churches, if these Churches had a direct line to Jesus? In other words, if Jesus is the authority over the Church, and the Churches, and the individuals in the Churches had a direct line to Jesus, then why were Paul and the other apostles put in authority over these Churches?

He had to learn from Christ. If the scriptures had been enough to make him complete, then he would not have needed to learn more from Christ. But he did.

You are correct that Paul had to learn from Christ, and so did the rest of the apostles which Jesus commissioned to "go into all the world." In fact, one of the qualifications of an apostle, which we learn from scripture is, an apostle had to be present, and have witnessed the life, death, and resurrection. Paul was not present for this, which is why Paul described himself as an apostle which was "abnormally born." However, another qualification of an apostle was to have witnessed the risen Christ. All the apostles met this qualification, including Paul. Certainly, you are not claiming to have witnessed the life, and teachings of Jesus while He was on this earth in the flesh, and you certainly did not witness Jesus alive after the crucifixion. The point again is that there are many abilities, authorities, and experiences, which the apostles had which you could not dare to claim for yourself, but for some strange reason you do claim to have the ability to communicate directly to Jesus just like the apostles did.

You see, the apostles spent some three years learning directly at the feet of Jesus. Jesus then sent these same men out with authority He had given them, and they went on to exercise this authority they were given over the Churches. This would have included the writings which are contained in the NT, and once all of this was complete, and the apostolic age ended, there was no more need in any of these gifts, including a direct line to Jesus, which is exactly why Paul could tell Timothy at the end of his life that, "the scriptures are able to make the man of God complete, thoroughly equipped, for every good work," which means there is nothing left out, and nothing else needed.

As did Peter (for a second example) - or he would have known that Gentiles were going to be included in the covenant from the scriptures, that he should not call them unclean. But he did not know this from the scriptures. He needed Christ to teach him this in a vision (from Acts - the clean and unclean animals.)

What in the world is it in this passage which causes you to believe that you are to have the same experiences? Again, all of this was going on in the apostolic age, before all was complete, and the cannon closed. You are killing yourself here. What this passage demonstrates is even the apostles were under the impression that the gospel was only intended for the house of Israel and was not to go to the gentiles. The gentiles have now been included in, and Paul was the apostle to the gentiles, and Paul, and the rest of the apostles went on to live out the rest of their lives with the authority Jesus had given them, and they accomplished the mission in order for the rest of us to have all we need, in what they have left behind, which is exactly why Paul can tell Timothy at the end of his life "the scriptures are able to make you complete".

Paul also says the following:

And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. Colossians 2:10

So Paul knew that we are made complete in Christ.

Again, you are killing your own argument. If the Colossians had a direct line to Jesus, why would Paul have to write this out to them? How in the world does Paul telling the Colossians that they had "been made complete in Christ" translate into your mind they had a direct line to Jesus? You cannot make that make sense. Rather, Paul is saying, with the authority I have been given by Christ, I have planted the Colossian Church which you are a part, and you have received Christ, and therefore you have been made complete. You see, you are having to force a meaning which is not there. Saying one has been made complete in Christ, does not come close to even suggesting they would have a direct line to Jesus.

No, Jack, you are wrong in this.

Listen to the words:

WHOEVER has my commands.

"WHOEVER has my commands is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father and I will love him and reveal myself to him."

Tammy, as I have said, it would take a lot of time and space to explain this all out to you. In other words, it is far more complicated than taking one passage completely out of its context, and reading what you think it must, and has to be saying. You are using this passage in John 14 and acting as if it would apply to you when it has nothing whatsoever to do with you. You are ignoring the fact that Jesus is having an intimate conversation with the 12 (and only the 12) who are His students. In other words, we are on the outside looking into this classroom with teacher and student, and hearing what the teacher is saying to the students. You know, the students which He was about to send out with His authority, who would go on to cause Jesus to be the most well-known Name in the history of the whole entire world.

Okay, with that being said, let us think about a modern classroom today, where a teacher is instructing her students. Now let us imagine that this teacher tells the class, "anyone who can give the correct answer to this next question will win a $1000.00 gift certificate." Okay, do you imagine the teacher is really referring to anyone at all? Or is the "anyone" confined to the students she is addressing? There is no difference in the passage you are referring too, as we are about to see. This one little sentence you are using which is,

"The one who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and the one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him.”

Is part of a whole intimate conversation Jesus was having with the 12, (and the 12 alone) as He was explaining to the 12 about His coming betrayal, and it begins way back in the previous chapter when they were all at an intimate dinner which we refer to as "The Last Supper." In fact, it begins all the way back to verse 1 of chapter 13 where it says,

"Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus, knowing that His hour had come that He would depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end."

Okay, would this include you? Were you included in when it says, "He loved them to the end." No, you would not be included in this, because you were not alive at the time. As we move on, we get to where Jesus begins to wash the feet of the 12 and we read this,

"Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head!” Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet; otherwise he is completely clean."

Do you understand what is going on here, and would this apply to you? It would not unless you walk in dirty roads in sandals. Because you see, in those days folks feet would get dirty because of the sandals, and Jesus was saying, "the rest of you is clean, but your feet are dirty." Moving on we read,

"You call Me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord’; and you are correct, for so I am. So if I, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. For I gave you an example, so that you also would do just as I did for you. Truly, truly I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him."

Do you see this Tammy? Jesus only washed the feet of the 12. He did not, and has not washed your feet, nor mine. Moreover, and more importantly, you can clearly see where Jesus is referring to these men as "sent ones." In other words, it is these men, and these men alone, whom Jesus is leaving with authority and a mission. Ergo, they are referred to as apostles (sent ones). You and I are not included. As we move on, we read where Jesus says,

"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”

Would this apply to you, Tammy? No, it would not. It would not, because you have not seen Christ. You know about Christ only because of the work of these men Jesus left in authority in His stead.

As I have said, it would take a lot of time as space to go through all of this, and it is way more complicated than you are making it out to be. Actually, it is not complicated at all. Rather, you are taking passages out of context, and applying them to yourself, when they have nothing whatsoever to do with you, when you would never do this with any other written material. However, since we do not have the time and space to explain it all to you, allow us to look at one more passage just before we get to the passage you claim applies to you, and determine if you will claim it applies to you as well?

This comes from verse 12 of chapter 14 of John, and it begins with the words, "Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes in Me." Now, do you see that, Tammy? Jesus is clearly saying, what He is about to say applies to "whomever believes in Me", just like the passage you are claiming for yourself begins with "The one who has My commandments." This passage you claim applies to you because Jesus begins with "The one" and you are insisting this would include you. Now let us see if you will claim this passage which begins in basically the same way?

"Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I am going to the Father."

Okay Tammy, the ball is now in your court. Because you see, we know the 12 went on to do the works Jesus did and also went on to do even greater works. Are you claiming this for yourself? Are you doing the works Jesus did, and greater? If not, then how have you determined that this passage would not apply to you, while just a few verses later claiming that it would apply to you? I know why, you know why, and I am certain the audience you are playing to knows why.

That was time specific, Jack.

Of course, it is, and what me and your audience would like to know is how you were able to determine this? I mean, you pick and choose as we clearly see what passages apply to you and those which do not. Next, you claim not to be able to understand the Bible and now want to insist on what a passage means. How does that work?

He did not say "I will not speak much more with you (or anyone) ever" - because He did speak with them (and others) after His resurrection and ascension.

Correct, Jesus did go on to speak to them after His ascension, but how in the world does this translate into you continuing to hear from Jesus directly. Jesus spoke to them, because He left them with authority, and a mission, and these men went on to do even greater works than Jesus, and are responsible for Jesus being the most well known Name in the history of the world. Somehow, you translate their hearing from Jesus as applying to you. However, for some strange reason the other things which applied to them, you do not claim.

Who said anything about this being against someone's will?

I hope we can agree that our will is in bondage to sin? If this is the case, then if we are left to our own will we would never be saved.

[JehovahsWitness]

I could respond appropriately to your question if you told me what a prophet is in your perception.

Well to start a Prophet is someone that claims to be a prophet. You do not claim to be a Prophet therefore you are not one.

You CLAIM " the Lord Jesus taught us many times that His name is Jesus ...." but you cannot produce the verbatim words and you rely on your imperfect memory using your personal words. You may have misheard or your memory may be faulty I don't know. I'll just "throw out" your testimony until Jesus speaks to me audibly from the spirit world or appears to me on a boulevard as God incarnate.... in the meantime from your testimony seems like demonic trickery to me.

I'm sure you are not going to advise me to listen to YOU rather than wait on the Lord to change my mind.

[tam]

Peace to you,

I would like to respond to this one section in its own post so it does not get lost.

[Replying to tam in post #395]

No, Jack, you are wrong in this.

Listen to the words:

WHOEVER has my commands.

"WHOEVER has my commands is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father and I will love him and reveal myself to him."

Tammy, as I have said, it would take a lot of time and space to explain this all out to you. In other words, it is far more complicated than taking one passage completely out of its context, and reading what you think it must, and has to be saying. You are using this passage in John 14 and acting as if it would apply to you when it has nothing whatsoever to do with you.

It is not complicated at all.

The truth is so so simple.

He said WHOEVER.

You are changing that. You are adding conditions to that. You are telling people that they are not and cannot be included in that.

It is the same as what the WTS (Watch Tower Society) does by teaching their members that only SOME people can eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ - even though Christ stated directly that ANYONE may do so.

Christ said (from John 6),

50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

“Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.


Christ says ANYONE may eat, and He even states that UNLESS you eat His flesh and drinks His blood, you have NO LIFE in you. That WHOEVER eats and drinks His flesh and His blood remains in Him, and Him in them.

Yet they teach their members NOT to eat and NOT to drink. The very opposite of what Christ said.

They have a complicated theology as well, Jack. They divide Christians into two groups - just as you are doing. They divide Christians into "anointed" (even though they do not know what that means) and 'non-anointed' (there is no such thing as a non-anointed Christian) - then claim that only the "anointed" are permitted to eat and drink. Only the "anointed" are part of the Kingdom of Heaven. They are literally shutting up the kingdom of heaven in men's faces and denying them entrance. The people teaching this do not enter, and they do not permit anyone else to enter either. (Matt 23:13)

And millions of people listen to the WTS and reject the body and blood of Christ, instead of listening to Christ (even if at least some of those people may be heartbroken later when realizing this.)

But God did not say 'listen to the WTS/RCC/LDS/etc... He did not say listen to Jack. He did not say listen to tam. He did not say listen to the bible.

He said, "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."

Listen to His Son.

And that Son said whoever, anyone, the one who loves me...

Jack, when you tell people that Christ's words do not apply to them, that they are not being called or chosen, that He will not speak to them, that they cannot hear His voice, how are you doing any different than the WTS?




May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear so as to hear the truth of this matter from the One who is the Truth: Jaheshua, the Chosen One of JAH. May anyone who thirsts and anyone who wishes, hear as the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"


Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to tam in post #426]

You have wasted a whole lot of time and space here by talking about the WTS. I do not know about, nor do I care about the WTS. The WTS has nothing whatsoever to do with what you and I are debating. What I do know and care about is the fact that you want to call me out for telling folks that "Christ's words do not apply to them," while you are ignoring the fact that you do not believe that every word from Christ applies to you, or anyone else today. This is demonstrated by the fact that you will not, do not, and cannot claim that when Jesus was speaking to the 12, and only the 12, and told them,

"the one who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I am going to the Father."

There is no difference, and yet you do not claim the above passage applies to you, nor anyone else today, but when we get to your preferred verse just a few sentences later, in the same exact conversation with the same exact 12, you somehow want to insist this passage would apply to you. Me, and the audience you are preforming in front of, can clearly see what is going on. You then go on to attempt to scold me for not allowing the words of Jesus to apply to us all, while you are doing the same exact thing, with the only difference being that you are wanting to pick and choose what would apply.

You absolutely, and completely ignore this, and then go on to bring in the WTS which has nothing whatsoever to do with anything we are talking about, and it is clear you are bringing the WTS into the conversation in order to divert away from the absolute fact that you are doing the exact thing you are accusing me of, only you want to be able to determine which words of Jesus apply to you while rejecting the words which you know beyond doubt you cannot possibly live up to. There is no difference between when Jesus tells the 12,

"the one who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I am going to the Father."

As opposed to when He says, to this same 12,

"The one who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and the one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him.”

As I said, there is no difference, and yet you insist one passage applies to you, and us, but you insist to folks the former passage would not apply to them.

May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear so as to hear the truth of this matter from the One who is the Truth: Jaheshua, the Chosen One of JAH. May anyone who thirsts and anyone who wishes, hear as the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"

Yeah! Yeah! We have heard you over, and over, and the fact is the words above come straight out of what is contained in the Bible, not from your claimed direct line to Jesus. In other words, you continue to claim to hear directly from Jesus, and yet you always continue to use what is contained in the Bible. The problem is as you admit, you have no clue as to how to understand the Bible, but it is clear beyond a doubt that you know when you cannot claim a passage would apply to you, and that is when you cannot demonstrate the ability the passage is describing. On the other hand, anyone can claim to have a direct line to Jesus, when that is all that is involved is a claim.

But the thing is, the passage does not say a thing in the world about "hearing the truth on this matter." What is occurring here is the fact that you are now understanding you cannot back up your claim from the passages you are pointing to, so now you are hoping folks will simply let go of the thinking process, and throw up their spiritual antennas in the air, in hopes they become just as deceived as those who have such a fantasy as a direct line to Jesus.

I think your audience can clearly understand that you have abandoned attempting to defend the passage because you cannot, which is exactly why you attempt to bring the WTS into the conversation.

[tam]

Peace again,

Going back to the rest of the post:

[Replying to tam in post #395]

You put "complete" in quotations, so you might need to explain what you mean.

I have the word in quotations because it is the exact word Paul used when referring to the scriptures, in that the scriptures "are able to make the man of God complete, thoroughly equipped for EVERY good work." So then, according to the Apostle Paul, who is an apostle of Jesus Christ, "the scriptures are able to make us complete, thoroughly equipped, for every good work" which means there is nothing left out. This means Paul, who we know heard from Jesus, says that the scripture is all we need to be complete, thoroughly (which means completely) for, not just a few good works, and not for some good works, but for EVERY good work. On the other hand, all we have is your claim to hear from Jesus directly, with absolutely no evidence in the least that this is the case. The question is, do we take the word of one we know for certain encountered The Risen Christ alive after death? Or do we take your word for it?

Just taking it as it is though - I have to say no

We all know without a doubt you would have to say no, because you have no other choice. I mean, why in the world are you acting as if you are having to think about it? You have put yourself in a place where you do not have the luxury of agreeing with Paul.

I'm thinking about what Paul may have meant.

I would also say that even Paul did not believe what you are interpreting from his words.

Oh really?

Yes.

By all means, please do explain to the audience you are playing to, exactly what Paul meant when he said,

"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

For one - Paul would not have been referring to his letters when he said 'scripture', nor to anything in the NT (unless Revelation had been written at that point.) Paul would only have been referring to what he considered scriptures: Moses, the Prophets, etc (see also 2timothy 3:15)

For two - all scripture is inspired (God-breathed) - aka - given in spirit. Like with the prophets - "The Word of [JAHVEH] came to me..." (Jeremiah 1:4, Hosea 1:1, Zechariah 1:1, etc.) But not everything written is inspired, so not everything written is scripture.

Revelation is inspired - John received from the Spirit (Christ, the Word of God) what he saw and heard, and he was told to write it down. On the other hand, the book of Luke was not given in spirit (and therefore, Luke is not scripture - since Paul said that ALL scripture is inspired.) Luke wrote an investigative report: he investigated and reported on what had been handed down by those who were eyewitnesses.

So I do not claim to know what Paul did mean - other than that scripture was useful for those things - but he could NOT have meant that it made us complete, because even he needed more than scripture:

Paul needed Christ.

As we all do! However, simply because we all need Christ just like Paul, does not in any way whatsoever translate into, we will all hear from Christ just like Paul.

No, but it does translate into the fact that we need more than scripture to be complete, which is what we are discussing.

However, Paul instructs Timothy that scripture would be all he needed in order to have all of Christ,

Paul said absolutely no such thing.

This is you adding your interpretation to his words.

You are also applying a double standard.

You claim when Christ spoke to the apostles (even when He said anyone or 'the one who believes in me') he meant only the apostles, and it applies to no one else today.

Yet when Paul writes a letter specifically to timothy, you claim his words to timothy apply to everyone, even today.

If we were all to hear from Jesus directly, then why was there a need for Paul, and the rest of the apostles to go out into all the world, preaching the gospel and planting Churches?

To bear witness to Christ, to serve, to invite others to come to Christ - to help others (who may not yet hear or recognize Christ.)

Because a) not everyone listens even though Christ speaks to everyone; b) as stated, most people walk by sight until/unless learning to walk by faith (which is not easy); c) we are meant to grow and become mature in Christ, but we are not all mature at the same time. So we can help one another and/or share with one another something we have been able to receive with one another; d) sometimes even we (sheep) are not listening for whatever reason - and so Christ may send them to His household to share what He has given; e) to counter the falsehoods that men are teaching and using in an attempt to mislead and deceive even the elect.

Next, why were Paul, and the other apostles put in authority over these Churches which they planted,

Jack, there is only one church - the Body of Christ. Christ is Himself the head of His Church - He is the Master.

That Church may exist in various places (the church in Ephesus, the church in Smyrna, etc). But there is only one Body of Christ, therefore, one Bride, one Church.

He had to learn from Christ. If the scriptures had been enough to make him complete, then he would not have needed to learn more from Christ. But he did.

You are correct that Paul had to learn from Christ, and so did the rest of the apostles which Jesus commissioned to "go into all the world."

Then there you go. Scripture did not make any of them complete - for that, they needed Christ. So do WE.

You see, the apostles spent some three years learning directly at the feet of Jesus.

You are undermining your own argument. You claim Paul et al needed Christ, but at the same time you claim that only scripture is needed.

Are we better than them? They needed Christ, but we only need scripture?

As did Peter (for a second example) - or he would have known that Gentiles were going to be included in the covenant from the scriptures, that he should not call them unclean. But he did not know this from the scriptures. He needed Christ to teach him this in a vision (from Acts - the clean and unclean animals.)

What in the world is it in this passage which causes you to believe that you are to have the same experiences?

Again, this passage is a direct refutation of the claim that we need only the scriptures, which is what we are discussing.

Again, all of this was going on in the apostolic age, before all was complete, and the cannon closed.

That is a doctrine and tradition of men, but there is nothing even in the bible which states this. So where did this doctrine come from?

Paul also says the following:

And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. Colossians 2:10

So Paul knew that we are made complete in Christ.

Again, you are killing your own argument. If the Colossians had a direct line to Jesus, why would Paul have to write this out to them?

Let's include encouragement as yet another reason.

The POINT though is that Paul did not say they were made complete in/by the scriptures. Rather, that they were made complete in Christ.


And see here 1 Corinthians 14:

What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.

They WERE receiving revelations - they were receiving prophecy for instruction and encouragement. Does that mean Paul stopped writing to them? Of course not. Same as with John when he wrote to test the spirits, when he wrote to tell the people that they needed no man to teach them, because the anointing they received taught them all things.

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.





Peace again.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to tam in post #428]

I'm thinking about what Paul may have meant.

There is no way to make Paul say anything other than what his words actually say,

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

There is no other meaning here. I know it, you know it, Jesus knows it, and your audience knows it. The only reason you are stuck here and having to think about what Paul was saying, is because you read the words and know exactly what he is saying, and you cannot afford to agree with what you know the words to say. Your problem here is the fact that there is no way for you to twist the meaning here as you do in other places. You know, like in my last post which you have failed to respond to, where you insist that the verse when Jesus promises to reveal Himself to the apostles after His departure applies to you, but for some strange reason you do not insist the verse in which Jesus promises, "the one who believes in Me will do the works I am doing, and even greater works." You know, where you scold me for insisting that the words of Jesus do not apply to all, while you do the same exact thing, with the only difference being that you are forced to pick and choose the promises which apply to you, while rejecting the promises you realize you cannot carry out. It's like, having a direct line to Jesus? Yes, I'll accept that promise. Doing greater works than Jesus? Well, no, that promise just a few verses earlier does not apply. Again, I am certain the very small audience you are attempting to impress can see straight through your creative narrative. In fact, I am certain you can see it yourself.

For one - Paul would not have been referring to his letters when he said 'scripture', nor to anything in the NT (unless Revelation had been written at that point.) Paul would only have been referring to what he considered scriptures: Moses, the Prophets, etc (see also 2timothy 3:15)

Oh really? Well, let us see what Peter had to say about Paul's letters.

2 Peter 3:16
"As also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

UMMM???? Seems clear to me that Peter believed the letters of Paul to be scripture, and on par with scripture. So then, we have Peter who was an apostle of Christ, and I hope we can agree that what Peter had to say would be Christ approved, and then we had Paul who we know was an apostle of Christ and I hope we can agree that what Paul would have to say would have been from Christ, and then we have you, with absolutely no credentials at all contradicting what these men have to say. Tammy, even you would have to agree that there is not much of a choice here if the choices we have are listening to you as opposed to listening to what Peter, and or Paul had to say.

For two - all scripture is inspired (God-breathed) - aka - given in spirit. Like with the prophets - "The Word of [JAHVEH] came to me..." (Jeremiah 1:4, Hosea 1:1, Zechariah 1:1, etc.) But not everything written is inspired, so not everything written is scripture.

At this point we have Peter claiming the letters of Paul was on par with scripture. In fact, Peter actually refers to the letters of Paul as scripture. Next, both Peter and Paul were chosen apostles of Christ, with authority from Christ, and so I am sure you would have to say that whatever they had to say would be authoritative. Then we have you, with no authority from Christ in the least, telling us something totally different. Which would you choose?

Revelation is inspired - John received from the Spirit (Christ, the Word of God) what he saw and heard, and he was told to write it down.

Okay???? I will agree with this. However, both you and I have no idea what is being said, nor does most anyone else. So then, we know what is said was given by Christ, but we do not know what is being said.

On the other hand, the book of Luke was not given in spirit (and therefore, Luke is not scripture - since Paul said that ALL scripture is inspired.)

Okay? But the thing is, we are not talking about what Luke had to say. Rather, we are talking about what Paul had to say, and you would have to agree that Paul was an apostle of Christ, who was given authority by Christ, and so we can take what Paul has to say as an authority.

Luke wrote an investigative report: he investigated and reported on what had been handed down by those who were eyewitnesses.

Again, I do not see what Luke would have to do with what we are talking about. With that being the case, allow me to explain to you my position on the two letters addressed to Theophilus. We know for a fact that Luke traveled with Paul on his journeys for decades, and we know Luke was there with Paul well into old age, while Paul was in prison. With this being the case, we know that Luke was alive at the time of Jesus, and we can also know that Luke would have known all of the apostles and would have heard the claims they were making from their very lips. This means, when Luke sat down to write out the letters to Theophilus, we know that Luke would have been in a very good position to be able to do the investigation he ensured Theophilus he had done, because he would have known all of the main characters firsthand, on top of traveling with Paul for decades. The point I am making is; I believe that any thinking person at all, would have to take what Luke had to say, over what someone like you has to say, even if you are claiming to have a direct line to Jesus.

So I do not claim to know what Paul did mean

This is SO, SO, FUNNY! I mean, you throw scripture around like you are some sort of authority on the scriptures, insisting what they must, and have to mean, and in the end they must, and have to fit the narrative you have created in order to support your fantasy of a direct line to Jesus. You can say what you want to, what I am saying is a fact. You have insisted that when Jesus makes the promise in scripture to the 12 that He will reveal Himself to them, this applies to you. However, when Jesus makes the promise to these same apostles, in the very same passage just a few verses apart where Jesus promises, "the one who believes in me will do greater works than Me" you reject this promise as applying to you. Now, we have a passage from Paul where it is absolutely clear what Paul is saying, and somehow you are just not sure what he is saying. However, the one thing you are certain of, is that Paul could not possibly be saying anything at all which would contradict your fantasy of a direct line to Jesus.

Listen Tammy! I know, you know, and your audience knows exactly what Paul was saying, because the meaning is so plain that even an elementary student would have no problem with understanding that the "scriptures are able to make you complete." Paul says, "thoroughly equipped." Do you have any idea what "thoroughly equipped" would mean? Any other time you would know exactly what it would mean. Actually, what Paul is saying is the scripture is able to make us, completely complete. This is coming from one who has authority from Christ, and the only reason you are pretending to have trouble with the meaning is the fact that what this apostle has to say, rules out your fantasy.

other than that scripture was useful for those things - but he could NOT have meant that it made us complete

If this apostle, who has authority from Jesus did not mean "the scripture was able to make us complete," then why would he say it?

because even he needed more than scripture

What you are failing to respond to is the fact that these men were involved in the writing of scripture. In fact, what Paul writes takes up a majority of the NT, and if we take away the two letters addressed to Theophilus which you insist is not scripture, then what we are left with is Paul taking up the overwhelming majority, and it is Paul who wrote, "the scriptures are able to make you complete." On top of this, we have Peter who is another apostle with authority from Jesus referring to Paul's letters as scripture. Again, any thinking person at all, is going to have to take what Peter and Paul (who were apostles chosen by Christ and given authority by Christ) over what you have to say, who has no authority in the least. Now, please do explain to your audience, why we should listen to that voice you think you are hearing in your head, over what these men with authority from Christ have to say? Please do explain to us all, why you are convinced that voice you think you hear has more authority than what has been revealed by these men with authority from the Living Christ?

No, but it does translate into the fact that we need more than scripture to be complete, which is what we are discussing.

What you are insisting that we need more of than scripture is Christ. However, needing Christ more than scripture still does not translate into hearing from Christ directly. Where did you find Christ? It is a fact which cannot be denied that the authors contained in the Bible are responsible one way or the other for your knowledge of Christ. It is in these same scriptures, which an apostle of Christ, with authority from Christ, assures us, "the scripture is able to make you complete, thoroughly equipped, for every good work" which goes on to mean, nothing left out. PERIOD!

Paul said absolutely no such thing.

This is you adding your interpretation to his words.

Tammy, what does "complete" mean.

com·plete
[kəmˈpliːt]

adjective

having all the necessary or appropriate parts:

entire; full:

Am I adding my own interpretation? Or does complete mean we have all we need?

You are also applying a double standard.

You claim when Christ spoke to the apostles (even when He said anyone or 'the one who believes in me') he meant only the apostles, and it applies to no one else today.

No Tammy! Let's get this straight. You and I both agree that when Jesus is speaking to the 12 and begins with "the one who believes in Me" applies only to the 12. Again, I want to make this clear. When Jesus begins with "the one who believes in Me" this is where He goes on to say, "the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I am going to the Father." You see, you do not claim to be doing the works Jesus did, nor do you claim to be doing greater works. However, we do know the 12 minus one went on to do the works Jesus did and even greater. The point being, even you are admitting that this would have only applied to the 12.

It is when we get just a few verses later when Jesus begins by saying "The one who has My commandments" where you now want to insist this would apply to you as well. This is where Jesus goes on to say, "and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and the one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him.” Who is it really who has the "double standard?" That would be you. Because you see, you want to claim to be in on it with the apostles when the promise is that Christ will reveal Himself, but you cannot be in on it when the promise is to do the works of Christ, and even greater. You see, we are talking about in the same exact passage, and you are claiming one applies to you, but not the other. That is a clear "double standard." And we all know why. It is because you realize you cannot live up to doing the greater works, but you can claim to hide behind the claim of hearing directly from Jesus. Or at least this is what you thought. However, we are now exposing your fantasy.

Yet when Paul writes a letter specifically to timothy, you claim his words to timothy apply to everyone, even today.

Okay, let's go through this. Paul tells Timothy who is a pastor, which is why Paul says, "the man of God" and Paul tells this pastor that the scripture is able to make the "man of God complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work," and we have access to these same scriptures, and even more, can we suppose that these same scriptures have this same ability for us? On the other hand, when Jesus is speaking personally to His students, and making promises to these students, and promising them access to things we are not promised access to, which would you believe would apply to us? Of course, you are going to claim to have access to the promise to the apostles that Christ would reveal Himself to them, but your claim fails when you refuse the promise from Christ, in this same passage that the 12 would do even greater works than Jesus. I am certain your audience will be able to determine where the "double standard" lies.

I may get to the rest later, but I think we have enough here to demonstrate the "double standard."

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to tam in post #428]


I don't know if I will get to the rest here, but I want to go ahead and put the final nail in the coffin. You want to claim to have the same ability as those in the early scripture who heard from Christ directly. However, you do not claim to have all the same abilities as these early folks, and you do not claim all the promises made to them. As far as I can tell, the only ability you claim to have as far as what they possessed is the ability to hear from Christ directly.

With that out of the way, let us keep in mind the fact that these men who were involved in these activities, were around long before the NT was complete. In other words, it was in the lifetime of these folks when the NT was in the process of being recorded, and many of these folks gave their lives in order for folks like me, you, and even the entire world to now know the Name of Christ. It is a fact which cannot be denied, that anyone with the knowledge of the Name of Christ, knows this Name because of the efforts of these men, even if they have never seen a Bible.

Christ is God in human form, and He lived, and walked with, and among the apostles for some 3 years, teaching them, training them, loving them, and guiding them among other things. Christ is crucified, but before this occurs, Christ makes promises to these men, and with these promises these men go on to give their lives, in order for those of us, along with millions, upon millions down through centuries to have life. I want you to see how Paul put it referring to his own life, along with the lives of the other apostles,

2 Corinthians 4:7-12
But we (apostles) have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us (apostles) . We (apostles) are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we (apostles) are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed— always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our (apostles) body. For we (apostles) who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our (apostles) mortal flesh. So then death is working in us, (apostles) but life in you (Corinthians).

Do you see that? Paul is saying the preaching of the Gospel is bringing death to the apostles, but this same Gospel, which is bringing them death, has brought life to the Corinthians. Allow me to continue on by giving you what else Paul had to say about the turmoil of his life by bringing the Gospel to the world,

2 Corinthians 11:23-28
I have been in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often. From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness— besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches.

You see, this is the life that Paul and the other apostles lived, in order to bring us all the message of Christ. These are the men Christ left with authority, and gave them the ability to perform signs wonders and miracles, even raising the dead, giving them dreams, visions, and other gifts, even communicating with them directly at times, and these men used these gifts, in order to give their life on this earth up, in order for millions, upon millions of us to know the Name of Christ, and have life in His Name.

My whole point here is the fact that it is an extreme insult for one to claim to have a direct line to Christ like these men, without claiming to have any of these other abilities, while it is costing them absolutely nothing whatsoever, while they are warm, safe, and snug, typing away on their computer day after day, week after week, month after month.

Again, it is because of Christ, and the gifts, and authority that Jesus gave to these men, which has brought to us the "Good News" of Christ raised from the dead, which none of us would have ever known without these men, and we want to insist these efforts were all in vain, because we can all have a direct line to Jesus.