Belief

[POI]

This thread is not to discuss many of the specifics about Christianity. Instead, it is to discuss one seemingly required element for salvation, which is belief. Sure, one can believe that the Bible god exists and still reject that believed upon god (and/or) be rejected by that god. But a fundamental and necessary element looks to be belief in this Bible god.

And sure, I guess a case could also be made that belief is NOT required too. This topic has already been examined here (viewtopic.php?t=39327). for anyone who cares to push back here -- (in that belief is not necessary or required).

And some others may argue that all humans secretly believe and that fundamental belief is already had by all.

All this aside, there exists a Christian populous who thinks that not all believe, and that the Bible god gives us free will to choose. Hence....

...For all intents and purposes, and to address the Christian folks who are under the impression that belief is a minimum requirement for salvation, I have a topic to propose.

For debate: Isn't the Bible god aware that true belief is not a choice?

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #5]

" Is there any good reason to think belief is not always a choice?"
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I think that depends on our definition of belief.

I use the word to mean that I am convinced that something is true.
So, my belief is conditional on something that I am convinced about.

If I can't tell if something is true or not, then I can't believe it.
If I am convinced that something is true, I believe it.

It's really just that simple.

Of course, my conviction might be mistaken, and is not a criterium for what is true.
Even justifying my belief doesn't guarantee that it's true.

I might be convinced of something false, and my justification might not be based on actual evidence, but opinions and anecdotal evidence.

When it comes to finding out if something is true or not, I try my best to use the best methods.
I cannot consider a faith, a hope, a feeling as a reliable method to obtain the truth, as that can lead to unreliable results.

All religions claim to be the one true religion, and they can't all be.
Just one can be.

Religious people debate over what religion is the one true religion.
Not all religions can be true, and all religions can be false.

[SiNcE_1985]

[Replying to SiNcE_1985 in post #29]

The point here is that the invisible sky carcass is under the assumption that belief is a choice, when it is not. And belief, (at least in part and/or at minimum), is what is said to divide the chosen from the unchosen. Tsk tsk, as the Bible writer(s) got yet another concept completely wrong, in that assuming we actually have a choice.

Soo, you're concerning yourself about particulars of a make-believe, fairy tale book/story...that has no bearing on your unbelieving life, whatsoever?

What are we doing?

[William]

[Replying to Ray the atheist in post #31]

I use the word to mean that I am convinced that something is true.
So, my belief is conditional on something that I am convinced about.

Yes that is a common misconception.

Rather, belief is a mental attitude that accepts a proposition, concept, or state of affairs as true. Unlike objective knowledge, which requires absolute proof, beliefs are subjective and are often based on personal experience, cultural conditioning, or faith. They serve as the foundational drivers of human behavior, values, and decision-making.

For example, if someone were to ask me if I believe the sun exists - in all honesty I can answer "no".

THis is because I know the sun exists and therefore, there is no necessity for belief about that.

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to William in post #33]

" I use the word to mean that I am convinced that something is true.
So, my belief is conditional on something that I am convinced about.

Yes that is a common misconception.

Rather, belief is a mental attitude that accepts a proposition, concept, or state of affairs as true."
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I don't see the difference between my common misconception of the term belief and the one you offered.

[POI]

Soo, you're concerning yourself about particulars of a make-believe, fairy tale book/story...that has no bearing on your unbelieving life, whatsoever?

What are we doing?

I know my presence here is a threat to you. But the facts are the facts. Your believed upon invisible space deity is wrong about this topic too. Add it to the list and deal with it. I'd ask you to pray about it, but we all know prayer is merely talking to yourself.

[William]

[Replying to Ray the atheist in post #34]

I don't see the difference between my common misconception of the term belief and the one you offered.

Do you believe this? You believe there is no difference?

Can you show this to being the case? (Explain why you believe this is true).

[1213]

...I think that depends on our definition of belief.

I use the word to mean that I am convinced that something is true.
So, my belief is conditional on something that I am convinced about. ...

I think that is a good definition. And that leads to, how people decide what is convincing enough. In my opinion it is always personal free choice, what a person thinks is convincing. That is why I think belief is also always a choice. For a person who doesn't want to believe, nothing ever will be convincing enough. And for person who wants to believe, not much is required.

[SiNcE_1985]

I know my presence here is a threat to you.

About as much of a threat as a snowflake to the sun.

But the facts are the facts. Your believed upon invisible space deity is wrong about this topic too.

So, an invisible space deity, which doesn't exist, is wrong about a proposition?

Add it to the list and deal with it. I'd ask you to pray about it, but we all know prayer is merely talking to yourself.

You'd ask me to pray to a being, who doesn't exist?

Why would you ask me to do such a thing?

[POI]

[Replying to SiNcE_1985 in post #38]

Being that you know beliefs are not a choice, I'll just let you feel 'special' in this response.

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #37]

" In my opinion it is always personal free choice, what a person thinks is convincing. That is why I think belief is also always a choice. "
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I don't choose what I think is true.

I conclude that it is, or I don't.
I use the best method that I know of in order to find out.