Is God evil?

[Compassionist]

There are many verses in the Bible about God's predestination. https://www.openbible.info/topics/predestination Why would a good God predestine anyone to do evil? Surely, a good God would predestine all to do good? Does the existence of evil prove that God is evil? Surely, a good God would have made all living things to be autotrophs instead of making some autotrophs, some herbivores, some carnivores, some omnivores, and some parasites? Here are some examples of evil events which caused or are causing suffering, deaths, and injustices:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll
https://thevegancalculator.com/animal-slaughter

[Compassionist]

There are many verses in the Bible about God's predestination. https://www.openbible.info/topics/predestination Why would a good God predestine anyone to do evil? Surely, a good God would predestine all to do good? ...

So, you would think God is good, if He forces evil people to be good? Isn't that tyrannical?

I don't think God has predestined anyone to be evil.

Isn't it tyrannical to create living things without consent? Isn't it tyrannical to make some good and make some evil? Did you read all the verses on this webpage? https://www.openbible.info/topics/predestination

I never wanted to be alive. I wish I was never conceived into this horrific and unjust world full of suffering, injustice, and deaths. According to the Bible, all things (good and evil) are created by God. "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7. God could have made all living things all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful but he didn't. Beings who are all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful do not harm anyone or anything and are not harmed by anyone or anything. Can a tsunami or an earthquake or a volcanic eruption or a flood or a cyclone harm all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful beings? No. God had the opportunity to prevent all suffering, injustice, and deaths by making all living things all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful but he failed to do it. I am not impressed by the Biblical God. Please see https://www.evilbible.com and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com Thank you.

As I have demonstrated in post number 8 on this thread, biological organisms don't have free will. We are prisoners of causality. Isn't it tyrannical to make us constrained by our lack of omnibenevolence, omniscience, and omnipotence?

[The Tanager]

Because he gives no reason to think so. If anything, god is simply telling Cyrus about himself.

Isaiah 45:4-7
4 For Jacob My servant’s sake, and Israel Mine elect, I have even called thee [Cyrus] by thy name; I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known Me.

5 I am the Lord, and there is none else; there is no God besides Me. I girded thee, though thou hast not known Me,

6 that they may know from the rising of the sun and from the west that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.

In verse 4, God says he’s called Cyrus “For Jacob My servant’s sake, and Israel Mine elect”. In verse 6, he says this is so that “they may know…that there is none besides Me.” Sounds to me like direct reasons to believe God is talking about using Cyrus’ reign for Israel.

[The Tanager]

1. According to the Bible God predestined everything.

Why do you think that? I've read the verses you linked to. Why do you read them the above way?

2. We don't have free will. Our choices are the products of our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences.

Why do you think that? Also, I’m talking about what free will philosophers mean when they talk about free will. That isn’t the ability to do anything one wants to, where, if we can’t go back in time, we don’t have truly free will. It isn’t the ability to control automatic physical responses. It isn’t the ability to choose whether we come to exist or not. [That, in itself, is completely illogical, for we’d have to already exist before given the choice to begin to exist.] Free will is about having free choices within our human limitations.

3. I disagree. Good is whatever helps. Evil is whatever harms. So, if I harm an ant, I am evil and if I help an ant, I am good.

But how do you determine what is helpful or harmful? The same action can be helpful to one purpose and harmful to another.

4. Death harms organisms permanently, therefore, it is evil.

What about something like putting a dog down because of the immense pain it is feeling? Is it better for that dog to keep living in constant pain? Or what if the death of an organism provides greater good for the environment as a whole?

[Purple Knight]

There are many verses in the Bible about God's predestination. https://www.openbible.info/topics/predestination Why would a good God predestine anyone to do evil? Surely, a good God would predestine all to do good? Does the existence of evil prove that God is evil?

No. One good apologetic for this is that God cares what you might do under pressure and this is all a dream anyway and you can't actually hurt people. But... it still matters if you would. So it's just a test.

[Compassionist]

There are many verses in the Bible about God's predestination. https://www.openbible.info/topics/predestination Why would a good God predestine anyone to do evil? Surely, a good God would predestine all to do good? Does the existence of evil prove that God is evil?

No. One good apologetic for this is that God cares what you might do under pressure and this is all a dream anyway and you can't actually hurt people. But... it still matters if you would. So it's just a test.

Why would an all-knowing God need to test anyone? This makes zero sense. The whole point of testing something is to discover something that is not known. How can you say that we can't actually hurt people? Humans and other living things get hurt and die every second.

[Compassionist]

1. According to the Bible God predestined everything.

Why do you think that? I've read the verses you linked to. Why do you read them the above way?

2. We don't have free will. Our choices are the products of our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences.

Why do you think that? Also, I’m talking about what free will philosophers mean when they talk about free will. That isn’t the ability to do anything one wants to, where, if we can’t go back in time, we don’t have truly free will. It isn’t the ability to control automatic physical responses. It isn’t the ability to choose whether we come to exist or not. [That, in itself, is completely illogical, for we’d have to already exist before given the choice to begin to exist.] Free will is about having free choices within our human limitations.

3. I disagree. Good is whatever helps. Evil is whatever harms. So, if I harm an ant, I am evil and if I help an ant, I am good.

But how do you determine what is helpful or harmful? The same action can be helpful to one purpose and harmful to another.

4. Death harms organisms permanently, therefore, it is evil.

What about something like putting a dog down because of the immense pain it is feeling? Is it better for that dog to keep living in constant pain? Or what if the death of an organism provides greater good for the environment as a whole?

How else can you interpret the verses about predestination? I interpret the verses to mean that God predestined everything because the interpretation makes sense. The Bible is not the only book with predestination by God in it. "The Lord has created and balanced all things and has fixed their destinies and guided them." - Surah 87 verses 2,3, The Quran.

Definition of free will: A will that is free from all constraints and is not determined by any variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. I have never met anyone with free will.

Definition of constrained will: A will that is constrained and is determined by variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. Biological organisms have constrained will.

What do you think of my definitions? Do you have more accurate definitions? If so, what are they and what makes them more accurate? You claimed that free will is about having free choices within our human limitations - our choices are never free. I am convinced that we all act according to the interactions of our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. If I had the genes, environments, nutrients and experiences of you or Albert Einstein or Marie Curie or Joseph Stalin or Adolf Hitler or anyone else, I would have made the same choices made by you or Albert Einstein or Marie Curie or Joseph Stalin or Adolf Hitler or anyone else. No living thing chooses to be born into this horrific and unjust world. No living thing chooses the genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences that make them who they are. No one really deserves any blame or praise for anything. We are all prisoners of causality who are doomed to be born, doomed to suffer, and doomed to die through no fault of our own.

Since I did not exist before I was conceived, I could not have consented to come into existence. So, I should not have been brought into existence. How can I prevent my existence, please? I really want to prevent my existence as I hate being alive in this horrific and unjust world. I hate not being able to prevent all suffering, injustice, and deaths. I hate note being able to make all living things forever happy.

You determine what is helpful and what is harmful by the effect it has on an organism. For example, rescuing someone who is drowning in the sea will save their life. So, the action is helpful. Murdering someone will end their life so the action is harmful. Helpful actions or inactions result in saving or improving lives. Harmful actions or inactions result in ending or worsening lives. For example, if I were to throw acid on someone's face, it would cause them facial disfiguration and pain. Therefore, this action would be classified as harmful.

Putting a dog down because he or she is in pain relieves the pain but it also prevents any enjoyment in the future. I would rather cure the dog of the illness or injury causing the pain.

As for the death of an organism providing greater good for the environment as a whole - can you please clarify what you mean by giving an example? Are you talking about the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few?

[Purple Knight]

There are many verses in the Bible about God's predestination. https://www.openbible.info/topics/predestination Why would a good God predestine anyone to do evil? Surely, a good God would predestine all to do good? Does the existence of evil prove that God is evil?

No. One good apologetic for this is that God cares what you might do under pressure and this is all a dream anyway and you can't actually hurt people. But... it still matters if you would. So it's just a test.

Why would an all-knowing God need to test anyone? This makes zero sense. The whole point of testing something is to discover something that is not known. How can you say that we can't actually hurt people? Humans and other living things get hurt and die every second.

I know this is not the Christian interpretation but I don't think God is all-knowing, at least when it comes to free will. (Or it could be that he has to make you actually go through with it because punishing someone for something they haven't done is wrong.)

But how do you determine what is helpful or harmful? The same action can be helpful to one purpose and harmful to another.

I went down the same path as Compassionist and my answer to this was that you have to separate good and evil people. Evil people are by nature harmers and good ones are by nature helpers. It is good to harm evil (you come out ahead here or at least expect to) and it is good to help good. This is more or less what most people believe, they just won't be so forthright about it.

Any time you have to choose, between people, choose the most moral person. I admit this has a really nasty meta of everyone scrambling to show that they are the most moral so they don't get kicked when they're down and they get helped instead, but it's just where that road goes.

The dog thing is a hard problem and without asking the dog you have to guess. But if someone tells you that they are in so much pain that their existence is overall hurting them, it's a good thing in this philosophy to put them out of their misery.

[Compassionist]

There are many verses in the Bible about God's predestination. https://www.openbible.info/topics/predestination Why would a good God predestine anyone to do evil? Surely, a good God would predestine all to do good? Does the existence of evil prove that God is evil?

No. One good apologetic for this is that God cares what you might do under pressure and this is all a dream anyway and you can't actually hurt people. But... it still matters if you would. So it's just a test.

Why would an all-knowing God need to test anyone? This makes zero sense. The whole point of testing something is to discover something that is not known. How can you say that we can't actually hurt people? Humans and other living things get hurt and die every second.

I know this is not the Christian interpretation but I don't think God is all-knowing, at least when it comes to free will. (Or it could be that he has to make you actually go through with it because punishing someone for something they haven't done is wrong.)

But how do you determine what is helpful or harmful? The same action can be helpful to one purpose and harmful to another.

I went down the same path as Compassionist and my answer to this was that you have to separate good and evil people. Evil people are by nature harmers and good ones are by nature helpers. It is good to harm evil (you come out ahead here or at least expect to) and it is good to help good. This is more or less what most people believe, they just won't be so forthright about it.

Any time you have to choose, between people, choose the most moral person. I admit this has a really nasty meta of everyone scrambling to show that they are the most moral so they don't get kicked when they're down and they get helped instead, but it's just where that road goes.

The dog thing is a hard problem and without asking the dog you have to guess. But if someone tells you that they are in so much pain that their existence is overall hurting them, it's a good thing in this philosophy to put them out of their misery.

I am an Agnostic Atheist because I can't decide if God is evil and real or evil and imaginary. How do you know that God exists at all? How do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is correct?

You said that it is good to harm evil. Vegans consider non-vegans to be evil. 99.61% of the 8 billion people currently alive are non-vegans. Does this mean vegans should euthanise the non-vegans if they refuse to convert to veganism? No, it doesn't. We should not kill anyone, even if they are evil. We should imprison evil people to protect good people. Should we imprison non-vegans so they can't harm sentient organisms? Some vegans said yes. I know because I asked them.

[Purple Knight]

How do you know that God exists at all?

I don't think he does.

How do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is correct?

I'm just doing the same thing I do for Star Trek and going with it's fiction, but here's the most generous and least problematic interpretation.

You said that it is good to harm evil. Vegans consider non-vegans to be evil. 99.61% of the 8 billion people currently alive are non-vegans. Does this mean vegans should euthanise the non-vegans if they refuse to convert to veganism?

Well, you have to ask yourself what is the greatest good and where you want to end up. You seem to know the second part by heart: You want everybody to be autotrophs. I have to say that'd be nice. It's just that we'll never end up there unless people come out and not only insist that eating meat really is evil, but stand up for that fact. Pouring blood on people isn't going to solve anything. If you really, really, really believe someone is evil, do you have a right to do away with them? I can't answer that for you.

But I have said that despite being pro-choice, the people who blow up Planned Parenthood are right, because they think those fetuses are people. They are defending people. I don't agree with them that a fetus is a person, but they think that and it's murder to them and I agree that you have a right to use deadly force to stop murder.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #19]
How confident are you that God does not exist? What is the basis for your confidence level?

As I said in post number 18 in this thread, I don't think we should be killing evil people. I think we should be imprisoning them to protect good people. I am against the death penalty. I am also against using lethal force to stop someone from murdering. We should use stun guns, not lethal bullets.