What is wrong with abortion?

[arunangelo]

What is wrong with abortion?

Those who exercise true love respect all human beings irrespective of their appearance or size. They, therefore, recognize the humanity of a one cell stage human being by recognizing that it is an independent life form with human genes; and has a human life force within it that initiates, directs and sustains a process to take that person through successive stages of development (over many years) to transform that person from a single cell individual to a fully grown human being with 10 trillion cells, multiple complex systems and a brain with a memory capacity equal to 20,000 computers. They, therefore see destruction of human beings in the embryonic and fetal stage as murder. They also see such an act as gross violation of human rights because it denies the victim from reaching his/her full human potential.

[T-mash]

That biblical wise men thought the earth was flat is debatable, try again.

Debatable? The entire bible is filled with claims of the earth being flat and a lot of the stories are based on it being flat (seeing the entire world from a mountain etc etc good luck with that if it's spherical). Even now we still have Christians who believe the Earth is flat....

Personally, the people that may be murdering hundreds of millions of helpless voiceless people (by ignorance or rationalization) is not only scary, its horrific.

Then stop eating meat, masturbating and having sex.

The problem is that science the near religion of some unbelievers and our legal system determined when someone could be considered human. Dangrous stuff that!

As opposed to who deciding it? An entity whose existence has never been shown to be? You actually believe we should leave decisions like this in the hands of a magical skydwelling being of who we doubt it's existence? I find it rather embarrassing that you think human issues shouldn't be left in the hands of humans... maybe put your "faith" in mankind instead?

I am an amateur astronomer with way too much money tied up in my telescope and other stuff (the star drive and related gadgets).

Then you should have already seen that the earth is immovable and the centre of the universe, like your bible claims. Oh wait..

I love the other sciences and have a room full of rocks and fossils etc. We have created a technical civilization of haves (vs third world have nots) Pandora's box built on a foundation of a glass card house dependent on science. Not good.

Again you fail to see what science is. You are saying that HUMANS have build their civilization based on HUMAN knowledge and that is not good? Huh? What?

But I do love science, I simply dislike the authority that it has.

Science has no authority. Science is human knowledge and the search thereof. Again what you are saying is that objective and verifiable human knowledge should not determine anything in our lives because objective and verifiable human knowledge should not have any authority. Huh? What?
Want to build societies on the lack of knowledge instead?

It defines reality for most of the western world and this really began to happen during the 20's.

And look what has happened to our world. Amazingly great health care... pc's blablabla. You want to go back to he dark ages instead? I sincerely doubt you are actually thinking about what you are saying, but are rather just firing off a form of hatred for "science" without even understanding what it is. Human knowledge defines human reality? Oh the horror!

Science wasn't always an authority.

No I would of been much happier if we would of followed Godel and his metaphysical paradigm out of the Vienna circle instead of following the Logical positivest, and the scientific method who were his peers.
I think we would be living in a paradise if that would of happened. (sorry for the discombobulated paragraph I am still sleepy)

I don't see how this has to do with anything :s

Ha ha really Ms Mash! The problem is that your modern current knowledge will change in the morning If it doesn't change the science truth of the next day will change just give it time. I wish I could put all the people that were pro abortion on a nice planet somewhere, the trouble is that we are in this together.

Yes really. Science changes? Wow.. awful... I agree with you now. Science should make a claim and stick to it regardless of evidence for or against it. Yes, thank you for proving your point on abortion! Maybe "science" should write a book where it makes it's claims about everything in the world and we stop researching to see if the claims are actually true. Because as we all know morality changing is a terrible thing. The world would be a better place if we still had slaves and black people weren't allowed in public places and women weren't allowed to vote. No one should trust human knowledge because wow it changes depending on what is observed!

Why? I have demonstrated that science changes from one moment to the next, and you base a life and death decision on that? The modern science will be a quaint myth in a couple of hundred years.

That might very well be true. However science adapts, religions die. Christianity is modern day mythology that will eventually die out due to education and scientific progress. Science merely adapts their viewpoint to what we can consider to be true. The scientific view of an issue right now, is what is true. There is no such thing as actual Truth that humans can find except in mathematics and definitions (because they are our own inventions). The result of this is that you can only aim to achieve as much truth as possible. Sometimes you are wrong and you need to start over from scratch, or need to adjust a few points, sometimes you are right. How you seem to suggest that it is a bad idea to make decisions based on what is considered truth for humans is beyond me. How you seem to suggest we should base decisions on a logically flawed ancient book is beyond me.

Again you are missing the point. Right and wrong does not have a time stamp on it, science sure does!

Slavery was "right" not too long ago. Burning witches was right not to long ago. Allowing women to vote was wrong not to long ago. Public hangings were right not too long ago. In fact in some places it still is in others it isn't anymore. What on earth are you talking about? You should be old enough to know that morality changes even in your own life time...
Right and wrong are human definitions. They are the words we use to determine if we like a specific action or not.

You are willing to take the chance that abortion isn't murder by the awful track record of science, which has to be able to be falsifiable? If that's true isn't that reckless and irresponsible and in many cases selfish. It may one day be criminal.

Nothing will change about abortion. Unless you are suggesting something is only murder if a person is self-aware? Babies fail the self-awareness test till they are about 2 years old (mirror test). It's HIGHLY unlikely that a fetus is self-ware and then loses it's self-awareness when it's born. This is also not at all the point, since it has nothing to do with anything. A baby isn't self-ware. The murder of a baby is obviously wrong. Most animals are not self-ware, yet killing them is no problem for us (even for sports alone). What kind of evidence would science suddenly find that would change a view on abortion (note science, contrary to what you suggest, has no opinion per se on abortion)? If you think abortion is wrong because it prevents the life of a human being.. I've already given you examples of how we are all murderers then. If you think abortion is wrong because a fetus is alive, we should outlaw cancer treatment, amputations and the consumption of animals and plants too. Of course you should also be against the death penalty, but ironically the leading "developed" country that still has it is highly Christian.

No I bring up a book when considered from an educated theological standpoint rather than one from ignorance that promotes the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Okay, so if we toss out the bible, what is left to support your views?

No I think that those that kill unborn children

Child: A child (plural: children) is a human between the stages of birth and puberty

There is no such thing as unborn children. You are exaggerating a term to try and prove your point. They are developing human beings that have not yet fully developed. A Sperm cell/egg cell is the exact same thing.

because they are lazy or simply callous (just not wanting the child) and don't know how to keep their knees closed should be seen for what they are. I think that those men and women why think no more to kill an unborn than swat a fly should be educated in birth control techniques. Many become pregnant because of ignorance. Again, again do not understand whats at stake here and that tragic, or if not tragic something much worse.

Which is a very good viewpoint but it has nothing to do with abortion. Unless you are suggesting we should force these kind of people to have children? As soon as a woman finds out she has become pregnant she should be given the choice. You know that condoms are also a form of abortion? The morning-after pill is also aborting your pregnancy.
Abortion: Condom-based abortion -> Morning-After Pill based abortion ->Medicine-based abortion -> Abortion through Surgery
The longer you wait, the higher the health risk, and also the higher the emotional problem associated with it. If people would use medicine based abortion or abortion through surgery all the time I would agree with you, but in such a case they should be made clear what the consequences of their actions are instead of saying: "You want your 3rd abortion? Sorry we only do it 2 times, this time you will have to have the baby instead."

The argument that these people are careless idiots that only become pregnant out of ignorance is flawed. 6 out of 10 women who have abortions are mothers themselves. Besides that what's the argument for forcing a pregnancy on women that became pregnant out of ignorance? The chance of them being a good mother is pretty limited...

[Scotracer]

P4JC, can you give us some examples of science that has completely, fundamentally changed our outlook on the world in the past 100 or 200 years? Something that has required us to look at the world differently and act according to these revelations?

You are talking like science is going from one extreme to another every day when you know that is not the case. Science, as we get closer to properly understanding something is more of a fine-tuning endeavour - sure there are things that are left that we have very little understanding of but these things won't really change how we act in our lives. What difference would it make to us, individuals, if we finally found out what happened during (and perhaps before) the big bang? It wouldn't make any difference to morality or how we should treat our neighbours like you are suggesting.

I would argue that your religion, whilst the text has remained consistent, the interpretation of it definitely hasn't. This is obvious when you compare our moral and social systems that are in place now compared to just 100 or 200 years ago. We've abolished slavery, given everyone equal rights (well, we like to think we have but there's still some way to go) and many other things that the bible does not support. And just because the bible hasn't changed doesn't make it inherently superior to science...primarily because it's wrong. Basing your life on the consistency of some old book and by extension having to follow everything that books says makes no sense whatsoever. If you have some text or dogma that has holes, yet you make no attempt to correct those holes you a) never had the "truth" to begin with and b) don't really care about truth, but only the book itself. Is that Idolatry? I'd say so.

Respect those who seek truth but be wary of those who claim to have it.

[Pastor4Jesus]

Debatable? The entire bible is filled with claims of the earth being flat and a lot of the stories are based on it being flat (seeing the entire world from a mountain etc etc good luck with that if it's spherical). Even now we still have Christians who believe the Earth is flat....

Yes debatable. The Bible is a work of many different authors and subjects, so there is no a priori reason why the cosmology assumed by its various writers should be more than not consistent. So, there is scripture to indicate that the ancients knew the earth was round. However most of that is beside the point. I have never claimed the bible is a science book its not. God cared little about if the bible was accurate in science. The main reason for the bible to exist is as a manual of how to save your soul.

Then stop eating meat, masturbating and having sex.

I don't eat most meat but what does that have to do with abortion? If you are going to say what I think you are you can rationalize anything, its a hallmark of those that think abortion is nothing to worry about.

As opposed to who deciding it?

Murder is murder, killing is killing, life is life, no matter who decides.

An entity whose existence has never been shown to be?

An entity that your indoctrination has blinded into not seeing. I see God every day. BTW, even if God did not exist murder is murder and killing is just that, its all repugnant, as is abortion.

You actually believe we should leave decisions like this in the hands of a magical skydwelling being of who we doubt it's existence?

No, I think we should leave those decisions in the hands of God. We should err on the side of caution instead of a lazy irresponsible man and woman that chooses to have unprotected sex then kill an unborn for her and his convince and mistakes. Its beyond repugnant IMO. To think of an unborn human has less right to life than a insect! Its sickening and that the only way I can put it. First aborting the unborn whats next voluntary then involuntary euthanasia? Whats next? Culling the population to improve the race, to rid us of the mentally ill the obese etc? Whats next? Killing off the undesirables? We have already seen those horrors so they can happen eh?

I find it rather embarrassing that you think human issues shouldn't be left in the hands of humans... maybe put your "faith" in mankind instead?

I see what mankind can do when left to his own devices, no thanks. I see what the world could be if we had the discipline and the self restraint to obey the teachings of Jesus or even the Buddha. Man and science has a horrific track record vs the immutable morals of natural law.

Then you should have already seen that the earth is immovable and the centre of the universe, like your bible claims. Oh wait...

Well my studies and schooling were first in science (major) then theology so I forgive you not knowing about all of the bibles references of the subject. Here is a link that is designed for beginners ; http://www.geocentricity.com/astronomy_ ... teach.html

Again you fail to see what science is. You are saying that HUMANS have build their civilization based on HUMAN knowledge and that is not good? Huh? What?
.

No I am saying that science has helped a few of us, however its created another slave class. I would rather we remained in a hunter gather society living in harmony with the world rather than creating the horrors of modern world. If everyone could have a measure of the good things that science and secular humanism has brought then I may be of a different opinion. However why don't you tell a starving mother in Africa why technology is so wonderful? Or a eight year old sweat shop (slave) that will die before she is 50 how great our brave new world is?

Science has no authority.

You are very naive! It defines your reality, how much more do you need? Your entire paradigm is based on what science tells you is true. Maybe you haven't thought about that yet.

And look what has happened to our world. Amazingly great health care... pc's blablabla. You want to go back to he dark ages instead? I sincerely doubt you are actually thinking about what you are saying, but are rather just firing off a form of hatred for "science" without even understanding what it is. Human knowledge defines human reality? Oh the horror!.

Yes in your little world science is great. Again its not worth the pain and suffering its caused. No I would much rather go back to not the middle ages but all the way back to when there were hundred of thousands of humans on earth and we lived in harmony with it.

I don't see how this has to do with anything :s

At age 20 I cant fault you in this. Maybe as you learn and grow you may be able to see that your completely indoctrinated into a paradigm created by the logical positivists. You are a product of that age, that is why you feel as strongly as you do about religion and God, your indoctrination has taught you its bad. f

Yes really. Science changes? Wow..

Its just a fact and if you believe in something that is true today but false tomorrow that's a good thing? Good luck.

That might very well be true. However science adapts, religions die.

Religion will always been here. Why is that? its because God is eternal. No God was here before science and it will be here long after science and the human race is extinct. Religion created science. However you still miss the point that I have no problems with science, I have a problem with people defining their reality with it.

Okay, so if we toss out the bible, what is left to support your views?

Natural law and God would still exist regardless if a bible does. Noah didn't have a bible correct?

Child: A child (plural: children) is a human between the stages of birth and puberty

There is no such thing as unborn children. You are exaggerating a term to try and prove your point. They are developing human beings that have not yet fully developed. A Sperm cell/egg cell is the exact same thing.

Unborn children, those little thingies from a embryo to a fetus that look like us. Those little things that would be a child if someone kill it with no more thought than stepping on a roach.

The argument that these people are careless idiots that only become pregnant out of ignorance is flawed. 6 out of 10 women who have abortions are mothers themselves. Besides that what's the argument for forcing a pregnancy on women that became pregnant out of ignorance? The chance of them being a good mother is pretty limited...

Well I could challenge your statistics but I won't. I am sorry MM, I sure hope you and your ilk are correct. For the sake of the unborn and those peoples souls and conscious that 'abort' (I am being nice here) them.

P4theunborn

[Abraxas]

I posted this reply earlier but for some reason it only seems to be showing up in the history when making a reply, not in the thread view. I apologize if I missed it or if the reason for this is something other than a board error.

To me, in the end, it comes down to what human being is required to give up for another. I understand the arguments for and against, human or not human, murder or not murder, and all that comes with it. To me, ultimately, it doesn't matter. In the case of pregnancy, even if you accept the fetus is human, you are essentially saying if you oppose abortion that you would require a woman, for nine months, to risk her health and body in order to carry around inside her another human being whether she wants to or not.

Now, I am all for caring for your fellow human beings, however, to me, there is a limit to the extent our obligation goes. If I can save a human being by giving up an organ, should I then be compelled to give up that organ? If I can save lives by selling everything I own, giving it all to charity, and spend the rest of my life doing volunteer work, am I obligated to do so? I do not think we are. Carrying another being inside of you for nine months, regardless of circumstance, to me is more than can be reasonably required of one human to do for another against their will.

[nygreenguy]

However why don't you tell a starving mother in Africa why technology is so wonderful? Or a eight year old sweat shop (slave) that will die before she is 50 how great our brave new world is?

Tell all the people who now have access to clean drinking water science has done nothing for them.

Tell all the millions who now have access to cheap food because of biotech and breeding programs science doesnt work.

Tell all the people who are alive because of vaccines science doesnt work. Vaccines are the single biggest medical breakthrough ever.

A starving person in africa has nothing to do with science. Its about politics. She just happened to be born in a crappy place at a crappy time. Same goes for safe working conditions. We dont see this in the US partially BECAUSE of science and mostly because of politics.

Well my studies and schooling were first in science (major) then theology so I forgive you not knowing about all of the bibles references of the subject. Here is a link that is designed for beginners ;

Your posts contradict this.

[Pastor4Jesus]

P4JC, can you give us some examples of science that has completely, fundamentally changed our outlook on the world in the past 100 or 200 years? Something that has required us to look at the world differently and act according to these revelations?

When we allow science to define reality that is all power influence. One that is more important than you can understand being an atheist is where you believe sciences explanation more than anyone else including God. That changes and entire society.

You are talking like science is going from one extreme to another every day when you know that is not the case. Science, as we get closer to properly understanding something is more of a fine-tuning endeavour - sure there are things that are left that we have very little understanding of but these things won't really change how we act in our lives. What difference would it make to us, individuals, if we finally found out what happened during (and perhaps before) the big bang? It wouldn't make any difference to morality or how we should treat our neighbors like you are suggesting.

The point I was making was that science is rarely correct it is as you say a method of searching for the truth. Religion claims to know truth or at least one truth (that God exists). The problem comes when either one oversteps their boundary. If God doesn't exist that remains to be proven. However we know science is wrong. So I am saying its more sensible to base reality on a ever changing discipline.

[quote would argue that your religion, whilst the text has remained consistent, the interpretation of it definitely hasn't. This is obvious when you compare our moral and social systems that are in place now compared to just 100 or 200 years ago.[/quote]

I agree that Christianity has changed somewhat. But the main message has remained the same. I am beginning to wonder if the old way of taking everything on faith isn’t better

We've abolished slavery, given everyone equal rights (well, we like to think we have but there's still some way to go) and many other things that the bible does not support. And just because the bible hasn't changed doesn't make it inherently superior to science

Hmmm well I would say science and some societies have accomplished outstanding remarkable wonders, they would exceed the miracles of Moses. But slavery still exists as does every form of mans inhumanity to man. It all has its ups and downs. Myself I would be happy to revert back to the lifestyle of the Amish or something similar.

...primarily because it's wrong. Basing your life on the consistency of some old book and by extension having to follow everything that books says makes no sense whatsoever. If you have some text or dogma that has holes, yet you make no attempt to correct those holes you a) never had the "truth" to begin with and b) don't really care about truth, but only the book itself. Is that Idolatry? I'd say so.

Ha ha so much is wrong with that assessment I don’t know where to start. First the bible is a book of common sense and wisdom. Many bible and god haters ignorantly pick and choose things like sentences from biblical stories concerning striped animals gaining their markings by sticks or similar out of context remarks such simply to sustain that hate and convince themselves (that’s usually the only person that is convinced) that they are correct in holding their critical views. When a theist provides evidence the PEA usually ignores it or immediately belittles the authors good looks or that he is a *gasp* apologist ! Rarely is the accuracy of the evidence rebutted for good reason, the evidence is overwhelming in favor of the theist.

So take the bible for example. Its not a science text book but rather a manual for the saving and care of ones soul. It describes God and how he went about creating the universe and man. The book does what its designed for perfectly and its correct and accurate. However all this is moot when debating some atheists, in other words get the book by ray comfort he describes why its so difficult to crack the nut of atheism.

Respect those who seek truth but be wary of those who claim to have it.[/quote]

Nobody talks about God as those who insist that there is no God.
Heywood Broun

Man can certainly keep on lying... but he cannot make truth falsehood. He can certainly rebel... but he can accomplish nothing which abolishes the choice of God.
Karl Barth

P4JC

[nygreenguy]

Ha ha so much is wrong with that assessment I don’t know where to start. First the bible is a book of common sense and wisdom.

Its "common sense" because we have evolved with these behaviors in our genes. Something with "common sense" is something which is not unique. Nature made this "common sense" way before the idea of god ever existed.

[Pastor4Jesus]

Ha ha so much is wrong with that assessment I don’t know where to start. First the bible is a book of common sense and wisdom.

Its "common sense" because we have evolved with these behaviors in our genes. Something with "common sense" is something which is not unique. Nature made this "common sense" way before the idea of god ever existed.

That is true but it in the bible some of it is written down. And lest we forget our Fundy Sunday school lessons God created the information to allow nature to exist.

P4JC

[Scotracer]

P4JC, can you give us some examples of science that has completely, fundamentally changed our outlook on the world in the past 100 or 200 years? Something that has required us to look at the world differently and act according to these revelations?

When we allow science to define reality that is all power influence. One that is more important than you can understand being an atheist is where you believe sciences explanation more than anyone else including God. That changes and entire society.

We haven't had god coming to explain the universe to us. We have a few books that claim to be the word of god but they cannot be differentiated from general mythology. If he's trying to explain the workings of the universe to us, he needs to try better. None of these Holy Books actually tell us anything about reality. Now it could be because they are basically philosophies written by primitive man or perhaps god just doesn't want us knowing how to combat disease.

Science shows how reality is. Anyone can look at the facts and the data and will come up with the same conclusion. That is the most objective way to look at reality.

You are talking like science is going from one extreme to another every day when you know that is not the case. Science, as we get closer to properly understanding something is more of a fine-tuning endeavour - sure there are things that are left that we have very little understanding of but these things won't really change how we act in our lives. What difference would it make to us, individuals, if we finally found out what happened during (and perhaps before) the big bang? It wouldn't make any difference to morality or how we should treat our neighbors like you are suggesting.

The point I was making was that science is rarely correct it is as you say a method of searching for the truth. Religion claims to know truth or at least one truth (that God exists). The problem comes when either one oversteps their boundary. If God doesn't exist that remains to be proven. However we know science is wrong. So I am saying its more sensible to base reality on a ever changing discipline.

On a scale of correctness, science has a lot of success. Again you're implying that one can know "absolute truth". That just isn't possible for humans. Take a look at the world around you, look at your car, your computer and tell me again that science is "rarely" correct. Our world depends on the fruits of science and on that front, it's an overwhelming success.

would argue that your religion, whilst the text has remained consistent, the interpretation of it definitely hasn't. This is obvious when you compare our moral and social systems that are in place now compared to just 100 or 200 years ago.

I agree that Christianity has changed somewhat. But the main message has remained the same. I am beginning to wonder if the old way of taking everything on faith isn’t better

So, to understand the universe, we should just take everything on faith? Are you seriously proposing this as an alternative to science? Faith offers no way to self-correct and as such is instantly inferior to the scientific method.

We've abolished slavery, given everyone equal rights (well, we like to think we have but there's still some way to go) and many other things that the bible does not support. And just because the bible hasn't changed doesn't make it inherently superior to science

Hmmm well I would say science and some societies have accomplished outstanding remarkable wonders, they would exceed the miracles of Moses. But slavery still exists as does every form of mans inhumanity to man. It all has its ups and downs. Myself I would be happy to revert back to the lifestyle of the Amish or something similar.

Inhumanity will always exist as "bad people" will always be born. The world is by no means perfect but we're going in the right direction.

...primarily because it's wrong. Basing your life on the consistency of some old book and by extension having to follow everything that books says makes no sense whatsoever. If you have some text or dogma that has holes, yet you make no attempt to correct those holes you a) never had the "truth" to begin with and b) don't really care about truth, but only the book itself. Is that Idolatry? I'd say so.

Ha ha so much is wrong with that assessment I don’t know where to start. First the bible is a book of common sense and wisdom. Many bible and god haters ignorantly pick and choose things like sentences from biblical stories concerning striped animals gaining their markings by sticks or similar out of context remarks such simply to sustain that hate and convince themselves (that’s usually the only person that is convinced) that they are correct in holding their critical views. When a theist provides evidence the PEA usually ignores it or immediately belittles the authors good looks or that he is a *gasp* apologist ! Rarely is the accuracy of the evidence rebutted for good reason, the evidence is overwhelming in favor of the theist.

So take the bible for example. Its not a science text book but rather a manual for the saving and care of ones soul. It describes God and how he went about creating the universe and man. The book does what its designed for perfectly and its correct and accurate. However all this is moot when debating some atheists, in other words get the book by ray comfort he describes why its so difficult to crack the nut of atheism.

Oh right, the soul that has no evidential support in reality.

The bible might be accurate if you ignore things such as the global flood, the creation of the universe in a week and other nonsense.

I've seen you reference Ray's book already. Do you seriously respect him as a "defender of the faith"? If he was on my side, I'd be wholly embarrassed.

Respect those who seek truth but be wary of those who claim to have it.

Nobody talks about God as those who insist that there is no God.
Heywood Broun

Man can certainly keep on lying... but he cannot make truth falsehood. He can certainly rebel... but he can accomplish nothing which abolishes the choice of God.
Karl Barth

P4JC

The first quote should have an obvious answer: if no one believed in god, no one would talk about it but the fact that so many people do, those who don't will make a thing of it.

And on the second: yes, let's call the bible "truth" with nothing to back up such a extraordinary claim.

[FinalEnigma]

I see what mankind can do when left to his own devices, no thanks. I see what the world could be if we had the discipline and the self restraint to obey the teachings of Jesus or even the Buddha. Man and science has a horrific track record vs the immutable morals of natural law.

Natural law as found where? in the bible? lets take a look...
Then ten commandments:
[strike]1) do not rape
2) do not molest children
3) do not enslave other human beings
4) do not torture[/strike]
1) worship no other God before me
2) do not worship false idols
3) Honor your father and mother
4) do not murder
5) do not steal
6) do not covet
7) do not lie
8) do not commit adultery
9) do not use the lords name in vain
10) remember the sabbath day and keep it holy

Those are the important moral laws, are they?

Again you fail to see what science is. You are saying that HUMANS have build their civilization based on HUMAN knowledge and that is not good? Huh? What?
.

No I am saying that science has helped a few of us, however its created another slave class. I would rather we remained in a hunter gather society living in harmony with the world rather than creating the horrors of modern world. If everyone could have a measure of the good things that science and secular humanism has brought then I may be of a different opinion. However why don't you tell a starving mother in Africa why technology is so wonderful?

After I fly there on a plane(since that's the easiest way to speak to her) and hand her a whole bunch of my genetically engineered food(cause I'm nice like that), sure.

And look what has happened to our world. Amazingly great health care... pc's blablabla. You want to go back to he dark ages instead? I sincerely doubt you are actually thinking about what you are saying, but are rather just firing off a form of hatred for "science" without even understanding what it is. Human knowledge defines human reality? Oh the horror!.

Yes in your little world science is great. Again its not worth the pain and suffering its caused. No I would much rather go back to not the middle ages but all the way back to when there were hundred of thousands of humans on earth and we lived in harmony with it.

Might I point out that you would most likely be dead by now if we lived like that? Your 45. that's really old by their standards, assuming you'd lived through your childhood years.

That might very well be true. However science adapts, religions die.

Religion will always been here. Why is that? its because God is eternal. No God was here before science and it will be here long after science and the human race is extinct. Religion created science. However you still miss the point that I have no problems with science, I have a problem with people defining their reality with it.

Religion created science? religion has fought tooth and nail to inhibit science for the last several thousand years - and still does today.

Child: A child (plural: children) is a human between the stages of birth and puberty

There is no such thing as unborn children. You are exaggerating a term to try and prove your point. They are developing human beings that have not yet fully developed. A Sperm cell/egg cell is the exact same thing.

Unborn children, those little thingies from a embryo to a fetus that look like us. Those little things that would be a child if someone kill it with no more thought than stepping on a roach.

That look like us? are you sure you want to add that qualification? you do realize that a fetus does not 'look like us' until well into the pregnancy?

further, nobody aborts fetuses with no more thought than stepping on a roach, that's false and insulting.