Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Chat viewable by general public

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Pazuzu bin Hanbi
Sage
Posts: 569
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:54 pm
Location: Kefitzat Haderech

Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #1

Post by Pazuzu bin Hanbi »

Mehmet Akif Ersoy wrote:When reaching through the eras of reform
Let your essential nature be your guide —
There’s no hope of salvation otherwise.
Hey there folks. I figured I’d gone long overdue for an introductory thread of my own. And so without further ado…

I grew up in a muslim household and community. Although I loved the idea of worship and the way some people can use it to better their lives, the Islamic lifestyle as prevalent in the community in which I live, the whole (Jewish–derived, I suppose) notion of exegetical analysis of sacred texts, and so on, I grew to realise I didn’t believe in God — or at least as depicted in any religion I’ve studied.

I have read too much and have too much scientific study under my belt to believe in divinity (except perhaps something similar to Aristotle’s views on a completely unresponsive God that created everything through emanation, though less theistic, much less theistic!). I’d like a God to exist, one that doesn’t demand we worship Him in formal ways (as opposed to free worship of the heart), but I’ve never really felt Him or His presence. I’ve slowly come to realise that I simply don’t believe. Not believe as such — I simply don’t care. My living means that God doesn’t really enter my active life (though I think about religion a lot). But I do harbour deep and underlying fears of punishment after death, though if I think about it more rationally I don’t think I believe in life after death.

I’ve studied Middle Eastern religions a lot, and I see all the monotheistic religions as a gradual — and sometimes sudden — break from the old paganistic ways. I see the human evolution of religion too much to give it spiritual credence.

But because of my upbringing, and love for my family and community, I feel compelled to defend their way of life — despite not agreeing with it — especially when outsiders viciously attack them, verbally or physically. It disappoints me that those who depart from Islam then turn to attack it with such viciousness, the Western media then purverying them as experts on the whole culture and religion.
لا إلـــــــــــــــــــــــــــه

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24999
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 207 times

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #41

Post by Goat »

olavisjo wrote:
McCulloch wrote: Thanks. Most Christians teach that it is conditional on my believing.
olavisjo wrote:Believing is good, but we must come to God as we are, he will take care of any necessary changes.
McCulloch wrote: Forgive me for being suspicious. What exactly do you mean by come to God. I will accept God's unconditional salvation, even though I do not believe that there is a God, so long as it is truly unconditional.

By the way, if it is unconditional, then it must also be universal.
It is unconditional, you need not do anything, you have signed a consent form allowing God to save you. All a person need do is ask, not hard, but you would be surprised at how many people can't do that.
the 'All you have to do ' is a pretty big thing.. Let me guess, all you have to do is ask by making Jesus your 'lord and savior'
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

User avatar
bernee51
Site Supporter
Posts: 7813
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:52 am
Location: Australia

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #42

Post by bernee51 »

olavisjo wrote:
McCulloch wrote: Thanks. Most Christians teach that it is conditional on my believing.
olavisjo wrote:Believing is good, but we must come to God as we are, he will take care of any necessary changes.
McCulloch wrote: Forgive me for being suspicious. What exactly do you mean by come to God. I will accept God's unconditional salvation, even though I do not believe that there is a God, so long as it is truly unconditional.

By the way, if it is unconditional, then it must also be universal.
It is unconditional, you need not do anything, you have signed a consent form allowing God to save you. All a person need do is ask, not hard, but you would be surprised at how many people can't do that.
As pointed out...there is a condition - it must be asked for.

So if it is conditional is it love? Or loves near enemy - attachment?
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

User avatar
bernee51
Site Supporter
Posts: 7813
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:52 am
Location: Australia

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #43

Post by bernee51 »

olavisjo wrote:
bernee51 wrote: So it is conditional on me receiving it.
Yes. It is like if I give you a free plane ticket, it is an unconditional gift from me to you, but you still need to board the plane to take advantage of it.
And if I don't board the plane what do you do?
olavisjo wrote:
bernee51 wrote: As long as it fits within the guidelines of lovingkindness which oversee my actions - to be mindful of the happiness and well-being of all creatures.
But, that does not make you free, you will still be in bondage to the needs of your body and death.
Not at all. When you are able to realize the answer the question I asked (Who am I?) you will also realize that the body and death are not bondage at all.
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

olavisjo
Site Supporter
Posts: 2749
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:20 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #44

Post by olavisjo »

goat wrote:
olavisjo wrote: It is unconditional, you need not do anything, you have signed a consent form allowing God to save you. All a person need do is ask, not hard, but you would be surprised at how many people can't do that.
the 'All you have to do ' is a pretty big thing.. Let me guess, all you have to do is ask by making Jesus your 'lord and savior'
How big can it be to say a few words "God save me". It is like planting a tiny seed which will grow into a large tree. Salvation is the gift of God it is not something that you work for, you just need to give him permission to make it happen in you. If a man like yourself, who does not believe, were to believe by his own power of intellect, he would have earned Gods salvation. But, man is dead in his sins and is incapable of responding to God, so you are saved not by your own will but by the will of God.
Are you ready to ask? What do you have to lose? You don't even have to ask in this public forum, you can enter your closet and ask God in private. "God if you exist, show me, make me a believer".
bernee51 wrote:And if I don't board the plane what do you do?

Not at all. When you are able to realize the answer the question I asked (Who am I?) you will also realize that the body and death are not bondage at all.
I am going to be on the plane, you are going to miss your flight.
I can't see how answering a question, is going to free me from the bondage of my body, I will still have to go to work, still grow old and feeble, I will still have aches and pains in this body. Life will always be hard. But I know that I have a God that will never require from me more than I am able.
1 Corinthians 10:13 wrote:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

User avatar
McCulloch
Site Supporter
Posts: 24063
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 9:10 pm
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #45

Post by McCulloch »

olavisjo wrote:How big can it be to say a few words "God save me". It is like planting a tiny seed which will grow into a large tree. Salvation is the gift of God it is not something that you work for, you just need to give him permission to make it happen in you. If a man like yourself, who does not believe, were to believe by his own power of intellect, he would have earned Gods salvation. But, man is dead in his sins and is incapable of responding to God, so you are saved not by your own will but by the will of God.
So if I don't believe it is because either God has not yet given me the gift, or that he has and I have rejected it. Is that your view?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

olavisjo
Site Supporter
Posts: 2749
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:20 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #46

Post by olavisjo »

McCulloch wrote:
olavisjo wrote:How big can it be to say a few words "God save me". It is like planting a tiny seed which will grow into a large tree. Salvation is the gift of God it is not something that you work for, you just need to give him permission to make it happen in you. If a man like yourself, who does not believe, were to believe by his own power of intellect, he would have earned Gods salvation. But, man is dead in his sins and is incapable of responding to God, so you are saved not by your own will but by the will of God.
So if I don't believe it is because either God has not yet given me the gift, or that he has and I have rejected it. Is that your view?
I can't argue with that.

User avatar
bernee51
Site Supporter
Posts: 7813
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:52 am
Location: Australia

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #47

Post by bernee51 »

olavisjo wrote:[I am going to be on the plane, you are going to miss your flight.
And the consequences of the missed filight are...?
olavisjo wrote: I can't see how answering a question, is going to free me from the bondage of my body,...
Not understanding the question will allow little hope of finding the answer.
olavisjo wrote: ...I will still have to go to work, still grow old and feeble, I will still have aches and pains in this body.
I attach no importance to these things
olavisjo wrote: Life will always be hard.
For you perhaps. For me life is life. How I relate to it is what makes it 'hard' or not.
olavisjo wrote: But I know that I have a God that will never require from me more than I am able.
Then your god limits you. You have no freedom.

What about what you require from you?
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

olavisjo
Site Supporter
Posts: 2749
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:20 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #48

Post by olavisjo »

bernee51 wrote: And the consequences of the missed flight are...?
If I gave you the ticket, not much. But if God gave you the ticket, the consequences may be dire.
bernee51 wrote:
olavisjo wrote: I can't see how answering a question, is going to free me from the bondage of my body,...
Not understanding the question will allow little hope of finding the answer.
Understanding is a good thing but it has it's limits. My understanding why a plane flies, does not reduce my chance of being in a plane crash.
bernee51 wrote:
olavisjo wrote: ...I will still have to go to work, still grow old and feeble, I will still have aches and pains in this body.
I attach no importance to these things
I give these things their due respect, but I know when this body gives out, I have a new and better body waiting for me.
bernee51 wrote: Then your god limits you. You have no freedom.

What about what you require from you?
All that I require from me, is obedience to God.

User avatar
bernee51
Site Supporter
Posts: 7813
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:52 am
Location: Australia

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #49

Post by bernee51 »

olavisjo wrote:
bernee51 wrote: And the consequences of the missed flight are...?
If I gave you the ticket, not much. But if God gave you the ticket, the consequences may be dire.
You forget - god loves me unconditionally. He wouldn't, in fact, couldn't if his love is indeed unconditional, do anything to cause me distress (assuming 'dire' is a source of distress).

The christian god's love is conditional - ergo it is not love. it is attachment.

Attachment is a very human trait, the existence of which in 'god', lends credence to the truth that god is a concept which reflects human nature.
olavisjo wrote:
bernee51 wrote:t;]
olavisjo wrote: I can't see how answering a question, is going to free me from the bondage of my body,...
Not understanding the question will allow little hope of finding the answer.
Understanding is a good thing but it has it's limits. My understanding why a plane flies, does not reduce my chance of being in a plane crash.
It does if you are a pilot...and we are all flying our own lives.

You are very fond of flying metaphors...
olavisjo wrote:
bernee51 wrote:
olavisjo wrote: ...I will still have to go to work, still grow old and feeble, I will still have aches and pains in this body.
I attach no importance to these things
I give these things their due respect, but I know when this body gives out, I have a new and better body waiting for me.
I see from this response you have not yet approached the question "Who am I?"
olavisjo wrote:
bernee51 wrote: Then your god limits you. You have no freedom.
What about what you require from you?
All that I require from me, is obedience to God.
You admit then, you have no freedom.
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

olavisjo
Site Supporter
Posts: 2749
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:20 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #50

Post by olavisjo »

bernee51 wrote: I see from this response you have not yet approached the question "Who am I?"
Matt. 5:13 I am the salt of the earth.
Matt.5:14 I am the light of the world.
John 1:12 I am a child of God (part of his family). (see Rom. 8:16)
John 15:1-5 I am part of the true vine, a channel (branch) of Christ's life.
John 15:15 I am Christ's friend.
John 15:16 I am choosen and appointed by Christ to bear his fruit.
Rom. 6:18 I am a slave of righteousness.
Rom. 6:22 I am enslaved to God.
Rom. 8:14-15 I am a son of God (God is spiritually my father). (See Gal. 3:26 and 4:6)
Rom. 8:17 I am a joint-heir with Christ, sharing his inheritance with him.
1 Cor. 3:16 and 6:19 I am a temple (home) of God. His Spirit (his life) dwells in me.
1 Cor. 6:17 I am joined (united) to the Lord and am one spirit with him.
1 Cor. 12:27 I am a member (part) of Christ's body. (see Eph. 5:30)
2 Cor. 5:17 I am a new creation (new person).
2 Cor. 5:18-19 I am reconciled to God and am a minister of reconciliation.
Gal. 3:26-28 I am a son of God and one in Christ.
Gal. 4:6-7 I am an heir of God since I am a son of God.
Eph. 1:1 I am a saint. (See 1 Cor 1:2; Phil. 1:1; and Col 1:2)
Eph. 2:10 I am God's workmanship (handiwork) created (born anew) in Christ to do his work that he planned beforehand thet I should do.
Eph. 2:19 I am a fellow citizen with the rest of God's people in his family.
Eph. 3:1 and 4:1 I am a prisoner of Christ.
Eph. 4:24 I am righteous and holy.
Phil. 3:20 I am a citizen of heaven and seated in heaven right now (see Eph. 2:6).
Col. 3:3 I am hidden with Christ in God.
Col. 3:4 I am an expression of the life of Christ becase he is my life.
Col. 3:12 I am chosen of God, holy, and dearly loved.
1 Thes. 1:4 I am chosen and dearly loved by God.
1 Thes. 5:5 I am a son of light and not of darkness.
Heb. 3:1 I am a holy brother, partaker of a heavenly calling.
Heb. 3:14 I am a partaker of Christ...I share in his life.
1 Pet. 2:5 I am one of God's living stones and am built up (in Christ) as a spiritual house.
1 Pet. 2:9-10 I am a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession to proclaim the excellence of him.
1 Pet. 2:11 I am an alien and stranger to this world I temporarily live in.
1 Pet. 5:8 I am an enemy of the devil.
1 John 3:1-2 I am now a child of God. I will resemle Christ when he returns.
1 John 5:18 I am born of God and the evil one (the devil) cannot touch me.

I am not the great "I AM" (Ex. 3:14; Jn. 8:24,28,58), "but by the grace of God I am what I am." (1 Cor. 15:10)

[center]© 1990 Freedom in Christ Ministries[/center]


Your turn, how do you approach the question?

Post Reply