What is wrong with abortion?

[arunangelo]

What is wrong with abortion?

Those who exercise true love respect all human beings irrespective of their appearance or size. They, therefore, recognize the humanity of a one cell stage human being by recognizing that it is an independent life form with human genes; and has a human life force within it that initiates, directs and sustains a process to take that person through successive stages of development (over many years) to transform that person from a single cell individual to a fully grown human being with 10 trillion cells, multiple complex systems and a brain with a memory capacity equal to 20,000 computers. They, therefore see destruction of human beings in the embryonic and fetal stage as murder. They also see such an act as gross violation of human rights because it denies the victim from reaching his/her full human potential.

[Pastor4Jesus]

Yes or no questions---

Is abortion okay in cases of:

1)Rape

2)Incest

3)Cases where either the mother, or the fetus, or both will die?

Bear in mind that it is possible to have a scenario with all three.

It's important for me to hear your answers, yes or no please. I don't want a maybe or any secondary qualifiers or anything. I wanna see which one of us is truly moral and which one of us only claims to be.

1 yes (but it depends on the wishes of the mother)

2 No (unless its rape)

3 Yes (again the mothers and fathers wishes would influence the decision)

Just guessing but I would say if those were the only cases that an abortion would be allowed it would cut abortions by 90%

P4JC

[FinalEnigma]

I will say now, that though I am not particularly vocal/stubborn about many things, women's rights are among the things about which I am darn near militant. If you try to mess with a woman's rights in my vicinity(and this includes demanding her to carry a child to term after she was raped or some such) you will have a very big problem, very quickly.


I've said this before, but it's been a while. I don't think men have a valid opinion on this subject.
You cannot judge a woman, or claim that her action is so evil that she must have been satanically possessed, unless you have faced the very same decision yourself, and guys? you haven't.

anybody who's sane agrees that in cases where both the mother and child are likely to die, abortions are only sensible.

In cases of rape victims becoming pregnant, I think at the hospital they should offer the victim(if it's reported, and if they don't already) a dose of those pills you can take the next day if you forget birth control.
Further, if the person does become pregnant, you cannot force them to carry the fetus to term. You are wrong on multiple levels. If the woman chooses to have the baby, then yes, it's fine, but if she does not want to, it could be enormously traumatic.
Rape is incredibly traumatic to begin with - guys, don't even pretend to know - and forcing them to carry around a constant reminder of it for 9 months is sadistic.
And even beyond that, when the child is born, if the mother doesn't want to take care of it, you can't force them, so it goes to adoption or foster care.
Do you know how overburdened those systems are? The world is overpopulated, and there are vast numbers of children that do not have homes. Why would you add to this?

The only time I think a guy should even have any say in the matter is if he and the mother are in a healthy, stable, long term relationship - but it's still ultimately the mother's decision.
think of it this way - if you were in a relationship with a woman, and the two of you didn't want kids, would it be okay for the woman to unilaterally decide that you should have a vasectomy and you be required to follow through with it?
no? then you don't have control over her body either.

You don't believe in Satan so it shouldn't make you angry when I say I think that some of those people are satanically possessed.

It shouldn't make us angry? it shouldn't make us angry that you think that having abortions is so evil that the women cannot possibly be that evil, and must be possessed by Satan?

any man (or woman for that matter) who believes that abortions are evil and the women who do them are evil(or possessed) can take that opinion and shove it.
The vast majority of women who have abortions agonize over it. do you actually think that having an abortion isn't traumatic? It isn't a choice anybody wants to make, but sometimes, women feel they don't have a better one.
and I can guarantee you, the very vast majority of the time, when a woman gets an abortion, she suffers a hell of a lot more than the fetus. some women feel immense guilt for the rest of their lives over having an abortion - even if it was necessary.
so next time you decide to go and possibly further traumatize women who have made a damned hard decision, doing what they think is best, don't speak. Do not even say it, because if you want to see an evil action, look in a damn mirror.

[JoeyKnothead]

Yes or no questions---

Is abortion okay in cases of:

1)Rape

2)Incest

3)Cases where either the mother, or the fetus, or both will die?

Bear in mind that it is possible to have a scenario with all three.

It's important for me to hear your answers, yes or no please. I don't want a maybe or any secondary qualifiers or anything. I wanna see which one of us is truly moral and which one of us only claims to be.

1 yes (but it depends on the wishes of the mother)

2 No (unless its rape)

3 Yes (again the mothers and fathers wishes would influence the decision)

Just guessing but I would say if those were the only cases that an abortion would be allowed it would cut abortions by 90%

P4JC

It's good to see a Christian is willing to make exceptions for abortions. I've never much taken to rigid ideologies or rules because there are so many nuances to being human.

I'd share in the fact that abortion is the taking of a human life, but we gotta consider the life of the mother, and other circumstances somewhere along the way.

As the Pastor makes his guess, I'd also guess that if more Christians would make such allowances, they'd have a stronger stand against "abortion as birth control" types of abortions.

[T-mash]

That is what is so abhorrent to Christians. It's the disregard for human life that abortion proponents hold.

Human life is precious to Christians. Others who kill for convenience rationalize abortion to be a medical procedure instead of a what most Christians consider a murder. They do so because most are good moral people and can not face the truth. However ignorance of the (Gods) law is no excuse.

We do not know when the baby is aware we do know it dreams in the womb, we know it will grow to be a child if not destroyed. I think we should err on the side of caution most of the time, allow life, don't snuff out a human life, don't make the unborn child pay for their parents stupidity.

P4JC

Abortion is murder in the same way sex itself is murder. Masturbation is murder. In fact just walking around for men is murder (dying sperm cells). Ejaculation produces 40 million to 600 million sperm cells on average. Even if you make a woman pregnant and you get quadruplets... that's a looooooot of manslaughter you did right? All of them could have grown up to be a child....
Murder? Get real.

What life would a child have if his mother wants to have an abortion in the first place?

[handofnergal]

Yes or no questions---

Is abortion okay in cases of:

1)Rape

2)Incest

3)Cases where either the mother, or the fetus, or both will die?

Bear in mind that it is possible to have a scenario with all three.

It's important for me to hear your answers, yes or no please. I don't want a maybe or any secondary qualifiers or anything. I wanna see which one of us is truly moral and which one of us only claims to be.

1 yes (but it depends on the wishes of the mother)

2 No (unless its rape)

3 Yes (again the mothers and fathers wishes would influence the decision)

Just guessing but I would say if those were the only cases that an abortion would be allowed it would cut abortions by 90%

P4JC

Thank you for being honest, I think I have made my point, or rather you made it for me.

BTW I think you're a moral relativist and I disagree, but I appreciate your candor at least.

[arunangelo]

Yes or no questions---

Is abortion okay in cases of:

1)Rape

2)Incest

3)Cases where either the mother, or the fetus, or both will die?

Bear in mind that it is possible to have a scenario with all three.


It's important for me to hear your answers, yes or no please. I don't want a maybe or any secondary qualifiers or anything. I wanna see which one of us is truly moral and which one of us only claims to be.

Abortion is never justified. In case where mother's or baby's life is in danger attempt must be made to save both.

You would actually tell a 12 year old girl who's been raped by her own father that she has to keep and raise the child? You are sick. And BTW before abortion was made into a legal medical practice women were paying black market doctors to do or doing it themselves with coat hangars.

Abortion is a medical practice and it saves lives all the time. Your perspectives would be different if you were men and weren't being brainwashed by the religious right.

You claim to be such moral people and yet I'm more moral than either of you or anybody in your good book, including your Jeebus.

Rape of a 12 year old is very evil. If she has abortion a life of an innocent human being will be taken. So that instead of one evil we would now have two evils.
Medicine is for healing without hurting another human being. It is not medicine to kill an innocent human being.

To make it legal for a woman to have her baby killed (by abortion) in order to make that killing (by abortion) safe for her would be similar to making murder legal so that murderers would not get hurt.

[FinalEnigma]

To make a 12 year old who was raped by her father and impregnated carry the child to term is literally taking the victim of arguably the most vile, vicious crime there is, and forcing her to risk an enormous gamut of physical and psychological dangers - including a 5 times higher risk of death than older mothers, a 7 times increased risk of suicide than other teens (the highest group for suicide), a 50/50 chance of ending up on, basically, welfare, and have a 25% chance of ending up pregnant again within two years.

and that is ignoring the majority of the psychological trauma.

these stats, btw, are for teenagers 13-19. they are going to be much, much worse for 12 year olds. 70,000 adolescent girls die each year in childbirth, primarily because they are too young.

to require children - yes children - who are victims of rape to have children is simply sick. There is no possible justification for it. You are subjecting the victim of arguably the worst crime in the world to further punishment and trauma.

and by the way, medicine is for healing without hurting another human being? Where possible, yes. But, have you heard of a kidney transplant? This is inarguably harmful to the donor.

[handofnergal]

This is why I call Christians moral relativists, they pretend to have this concept of absolute and superior morality to atheists, but a little thought experiment like this truly tells you where there heart is.

Oh yeah, rape is wrong, but abortion is worse

??????

Like the Catholic church: AIDS in bad, but condoms are worse

[McCulloch]

Yes or no questions---

Is abortion okay in cases of:

1)Rape

1 yes (but it depends on the wishes of the mother)

I do not understand why you would answer this way. It is OK to deliberately kill a human if that human is totally dependent on another human against her will? If abortion is murder in some cases, why would it not be murder in this case?

2)Incest

2 No (unless its rape)

I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you agree with the courts in that sex with a minor is always rape, in that children are not legally capable of consent.

3)Cases where either the mother, or the fetus, or both will die?

3 Yes (again the mothers and fathers wishes would influence the decision)

Quite reasonable. Yet, who gets to decide ahead of time what the odds are for survival? There will be certain gray areas where the chances of survival for mother or fetus are greatly diminished without abortion.

Bear in mind that it is possible to have a scenario with all three.

It's important for me to hear your answers, yes or no please. I don't want a maybe or any secondary qualifiers or anything. I wanna see which one of us is truly moral and which one of us only claims to be.

My own answers would be yes, yes and yes.

Just guessing but I would say if those were the only cases that an abortion would be allowed it would cut abortions by 90%

And yet anti-choice abortion foes focus on the relatively rare late term abortion in their campaigns. Personally, I would accept legal restrictions on late term abortions in exchange for freer access to early interventions.

[Pastor4Jesus]

Yes or no questions---

Is abortion okay in cases of:

1)Rape

2)Incest

3)Cases where either the mother, or the fetus, or both will die?

Bear in mind that it is possible to have a scenario with all three.

It's important for me to hear your answers, yes or no please. I don't want a maybe or any secondary qualifiers or anything. I wanna see which one of us is truly moral and which one of us only claims to be.

1 yes (but it depends on the wishes of the mother)

2 No (unless its rape)

3 Yes (again the mothers and fathers wishes would influence the decision)

Just guessing but I would say if those were the only cases that an abortion would be allowed it would cut abortions by 90%

P4JC

Thank you for being honest, I think I have made my point, or rather you made it for me.

BTW I think you're a moral relativist and I disagree, but I appreciate your candor at least.

From Wiki ; " In philosophy moral relativism is the position that moral or ethical propositions do not reflect universal moral truths (neither objective nor subjective). Instead, moral relativism makes claims relative to social, cultural, or historical circumstances. Moral relativists hold that no universal standard exists by which to assess an ethical proposition's truth. "

I do think that there are universal moral truths. So I'm an 'soft' absolutist, by that I think that God described and defines the moral standards for man. In other words killing (murder) is wrong because God says it is wrong.

Thanks for your reply and I am sure we can engage in good civil debate set by your example.

P4JC