Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Chat viewable by general public

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Pazuzu bin Hanbi
Sage
Posts: 569
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:54 pm
Location: Kefitzat Haderech

Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #1

Post by Pazuzu bin Hanbi »

Mehmet Akif Ersoy wrote:When reaching through the eras of reform
Let your essential nature be your guide —
There’s no hope of salvation otherwise.
Hey there folks. I figured I’d gone long overdue for an introductory thread of my own. And so without further ado…

I grew up in a muslim household and community. Although I loved the idea of worship and the way some people can use it to better their lives, the Islamic lifestyle as prevalent in the community in which I live, the whole (Jewish–derived, I suppose) notion of exegetical analysis of sacred texts, and so on, I grew to realise I didn’t believe in God — or at least as depicted in any religion I’ve studied.

I have read too much and have too much scientific study under my belt to believe in divinity (except perhaps something similar to Aristotle’s views on a completely unresponsive God that created everything through emanation, though less theistic, much less theistic!). I’d like a God to exist, one that doesn’t demand we worship Him in formal ways (as opposed to free worship of the heart), but I’ve never really felt Him or His presence. I’ve slowly come to realise that I simply don’t believe. Not believe as such — I simply don’t care. My living means that God doesn’t really enter my active life (though I think about religion a lot). But I do harbour deep and underlying fears of punishment after death, though if I think about it more rationally I don’t think I believe in life after death.

I’ve studied Middle Eastern religions a lot, and I see all the monotheistic religions as a gradual — and sometimes sudden — break from the old paganistic ways. I see the human evolution of religion too much to give it spiritual credence.

But because of my upbringing, and love for my family and community, I feel compelled to defend their way of life — despite not agreeing with it — especially when outsiders viciously attack them, verbally or physically. It disappoints me that those who depart from Islam then turn to attack it with such viciousness, the Western media then purverying them as experts on the whole culture and religion.
لا إلـــــــــــــــــــــــــــه

olavisjo
Site Supporter
Posts: 2749
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:20 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #31

Post by olavisjo »

bernee51 wrote: So it is conditional on me receiving it.
Yes. It is like if I give you a free plane ticket, it is an unconditional gift from me to you, but you still need to board the plane to take advantage of it.
bernee51 wrote: As long as it fits within the guidelines of lovingkindness which oversee my actions - to be mindful of the happiness and well-being of all creatures.
But, that does not make you free, you will still be in bondage to the needs of your body and death.

olavisjo
Site Supporter
Posts: 2749
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:20 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #32

Post by olavisjo »

bernee51 wrote: Using logical fallacies to support the belief in a deity is not uncommon. This is not surprising give that the creator deity who's existence you attempt to defend is itself a logical impossibilty
No, it is logically consistent.
The universe could not have come into existence under the laws of this universe as we know them.
God could not have come into existence under the laws of this universe as we know them.
God exists beyond this universe.
God may not be governed by the laws of this universe as we know them.

Zzyzx
Site Supporter
Posts: 25089
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:38 pm
Location: Bible Belt USA
Has thanked: 40 times
Been thanked: 73 times

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #33

Post by Zzyzx »

.
olavisjo wrote:
McCulloch wrote:
olavisjo wrote:God is Love.
bernee51 wrote:Is this love conditional or unconditional?
olavisjo wrote:It is unconditional, a free gift, all you have to do is receive it.
If God's love is unconditional, I hereby accept it. I'm gonna be in heaven in eternal bliss after I die, if you are correct.
Yes.
I'll take one of those tickets too. I agree to accept unconditional love WITHOUT obligation to return the love, to acknowledge the source or to change my ideas or behavior.

Not that it is important, but which god are we negotiating with on this matter? Do we get something in writing on this deal?
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

User avatar
McCulloch
Site Supporter
Posts: 24063
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 9:10 pm
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #34

Post by McCulloch »

olavisjo wrote:God is Love.
bernee51 wrote:Is this love conditional or unconditional?
olavisjo wrote:It is unconditional, a free gift, all you have to do is receive it.
McCulloch wrote:If God's love is unconditional, I hereby accept it. I'm gonna be in heaven in eternal bliss after I die, if you are correct.
olavisjo wrote:Yes.
Thanks. Most Christians teach that it is conditional on my believing.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

olavisjo
Site Supporter
Posts: 2749
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:20 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #35

Post by olavisjo »

Zzyzx wrote:.
olavisjo wrote:
McCulloch wrote:
olavisjo wrote:God is Love.
bernee51 wrote:Is this love conditional or unconditional?
olavisjo wrote:It is unconditional, a free gift, all you have to do is receive it.
If God's love is unconditional, I hereby accept it. I'm gonna be in heaven in eternal bliss after I die, if you are correct.
Yes.
I'll take one of those tickets too. I agree to accept unconditional love WITHOUT obligation to return the love, to acknowledge the source or to change my ideas or behavior.

Not that it is important, but which god are we negotiating with on this matter? Do we get something in writing on this deal?
You are receiving the only living God. You can see it in writing, in front of you, and it will be there for a long time to come. Welcome to the Kingdom of Heaven. When you are ready to continue this eternal adventure God will provide the means. I am also available for any assistance you may desire.

olavisjo
Site Supporter
Posts: 2749
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:20 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #36

Post by olavisjo »

McCulloch wrote:
olavisjo wrote:God is Love.
bernee51 wrote:Is this love conditional or unconditional?
olavisjo wrote:It is unconditional, a free gift, all you have to do is receive it.
McCulloch wrote:If God's love is unconditional, I hereby accept it. I'm gonna be in heaven in eternal bliss after I die, if you are correct.
olavisjo wrote:Yes.
Thanks. Most Christians teach that it is conditional on my believing.
Believing is good, but we must come to God as we are, he will take care of any necessary changes.

User avatar
McCulloch
Site Supporter
Posts: 24063
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 9:10 pm
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #37

Post by McCulloch »

McCulloch wrote:Thanks. Most Christians teach that it is conditional on my believing.
olavisjo wrote:Believing is good, but we must come to God as we are, he will take care of any necessary changes.
Forgive me for being suspicious. What exactly do you mean by come to God. I will accept God's unconditional salvation, even though I do not believe that there is a God, so long as it is truly unconditional.

By the way, if it is unconditional, then it must also be universal.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24999
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 207 times

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #38

Post by Goat »

olavisjo wrote:
bernee51 wrote:
olavisjo wrote: God is Love.
Is this love conditional or unconditional?
It is unconditional, a free gift, all you have to do is receive it.
olavisjo wrote:For me, being in bondage to a loving God is as free as I can ever get. Can you describe any other freedom?
bernee51 wrote:The freedom from not acting our of conditions. The freedom of acting, with awareness, in the moment
Are you saying, freedom to do what you want and when you want?
If you have to 'receive' it, then it is not 'unconditional'
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

olavisjo
Site Supporter
Posts: 2749
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:20 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #39

Post by olavisjo »

McCulloch wrote: Thanks. Most Christians teach that it is conditional on my believing.
olavisjo wrote:Believing is good, but we must come to God as we are, he will take care of any necessary changes.
McCulloch wrote: Forgive me for being suspicious. What exactly do you mean by come to God. I will accept God's unconditional salvation, even though I do not believe that there is a God, so long as it is truly unconditional.

By the way, if it is unconditional, then it must also be universal.
It is unconditional, you need not do anything, you have signed a consent form allowing God to save you. All a person need do is ask, not hard, but you would be surprised at how many people can't do that.

User avatar
McCulloch
Site Supporter
Posts: 24063
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 9:10 pm
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #40

Post by McCulloch »

olavisjo wrote:It is unconditional, you need not do anything, you have signed a consent form allowing God to save you. All a person need do is ask, not hard, but you would be surprised at how many people can't do that.
So it is conditional. You must at least ask. What other conditions are there?

Oh, and how do you know?

However, for the record, "God, if you exist and if I will continue to exist after my death, please don't send me to eternal torment and please give me a really good time in my afterlife." There I asked. I am saved. Hallelujah!
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

Post Reply