A speculation about Hell

cnorman18 · Post by **cnorman18** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:56 pm

A long time ago--I forget where or when--I read, in a book on "near-death experiences," that many people live through a sort of "review" of their lives at the moment of death. Some said that the experience seemed to last a mere fraction of a second, and at the same time it seemed to last for years. This may be where that bit of folklore about one's "life passing before one's eyes" when close to death may come from.

One or two sixh reports piqued my interest; these people reported that this "review" did not take place from one's own perspective, but from that of others. One experienced, from their point of view, exactly how one had affected their lives, from the inside, as it were; and not only the people one had actually met, but all those whose lives one had touched indirectly as well.

One relived the moments that one had created in others' lives as those people experienced them. The more power one had, and the more people one had affected in life, the longer such a review would have to be.

If one was kind and charitable, such a review would be mostly pleasant; if one was cold and callous, less so; if one was cruel or sadistic, quite unpleasant indeed. It turns out that we are all connected, and each one of really is a part of everyone else.

There seems to be a certain justice in that to me; the ultimate justice, in a way. What you have done unto others becomes what you have done to yourself. You get to find out "How would that feel to you?" in a literal way.

Now consider Hitler.

How long would his review last? Ten million years? Twenty million? A hundred million centuries? Living through the years, even decades, of misery, torment and agonizing death he had inflicted upon so many millions of people worldwide, and knowing and feeling every moment of them from inside each individual person's body and mind, just as it happened...

If that's not Hell, exactly, it strikes me as being pretty damned close. Not eternal--but plenty long enough. Not flames--but perhaps worse than flames.

The greater the criminal, the longer the sentence. The worse the crime, the more severe the punishment--in direct and precise proportion.

I kinda like it. Any comments?

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:26 pm

servant wrote:No I'm not trying to make a case for Christianity, just trying to pin point what you believe. Are you christian Jew or do you not believe the Messiah has already come but is yet to come?

The Jewish concept of the Messiah is different than the Christian version. Not only is the "Jewish version" yet to happen, but the expectations are that the Jewish Messiah will be just a man, rather than 'god made flesh'.

There are Jewish groups that don't believe in a 'star messiah' but rather believe in working towards a 'messanic age'.

cnorman18 · Post by **cnorman18** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:15 pm

servant wrote: So...we just have no idea until we die. God left us with no idea regarding any of this because....He does not care.

You are assuming that going to Heaven is our major concern. It just isn't. Further, we don't think it should be.

We are approaching this from very, very different mind-sets.

I mean didn't God give the Law to Moses?

The Law was given to guide us in how to live in this life, not as a roadmap to Heaven. Heaven is not the point. How we behave in this life is

So you only have to keep part of the Law and be a good person to get into Heaven?

Our job is to do the very best we can for as long as we live; to reevaluate how we live, repent and ask forgiveness, and start over again. Every year. There is never a time when we can say, "Okay, now I'm set, I'm going to Heaven, and I can relax." The task is never finished. And again, going to Heaven is not the point; obeying God about how we live here is.

The only reason I put it this way is because you said "to go to Heaven". So you believe you can know how to get to Heaven. Right?

If there is a Heaven, it's a gift from God. Period, full stop.

Look at it this way; if you go to school with only the intention of making good grades, you might; but your mind will not be on what you're actually trying to learn, so it's going to be harder and more boring and you won't get as much out of your studies. But if you go intending to simply learn as much as you can, focusing on really understanding the material and why it's important, you will learn more, be more involved and engaged, and you will probably get the best grade you're capable of getting.

That's what we do: focus on the work and leave the grade up to the teacher.

Ok lets try and different angle here. I've just been shot and I have only 1 minute to live. I've been a pretty good person but I am scared you know, I am dieing. I am scared I might end up in Hell. Please help me be at peace. How do I get into Heaven? I don't want to be wrong, this is life and death we are talking about and eternity is a long time. Help!

I would try to comfort you with whatever beliefs you have. If you were a Christian, or were brought up around Christians and were familiar with that faith, I would encourage you to confess faith in Christ and trust in him. If you were Jewish, I would say the Sh'ma prayer with you, the traditional prayer one says at the point of death, and encourage you to trust in God.

As far as actually helping you get into Heaven? That's not up to me, but to God. I would pray for you in either case.

You see, as I said, Jews don't say that Christianity is a false religion; we just say it's not the religion for Jews. I hope, and believe, that God honors the intentions and, yes, the faith of Christians. We have no warrant to say that only Jews go to Heaven, and we never have. Our tradition says that "the righteous of all nations (that means, of any faith or none) have a place in the life to come," and that no one but God gets to decide who is "righteous."

God is the only Judge; we are to do our best and trust in Him. For everyone else--well, we simply have no way of knowing how, or if, God has spoken to those of other faiths. That is between them and God, and it's none of our business.

Now here is a question for you: Very many Jews do not believe in an afterlife at all. They believe that when you die, you're dead, and the only thing you leave behind is your memory in the hearts of those who knew you, the effects of your deeds on others, and the Jewish people themselves. Others, like me, aren't sure either way.

Why do we all continue to pray, to be faithful to the Commandments, to attend services and fast on Yom Kippur and pray for forgiveness and all the rest? I can tell you that if I decide tomorrow that there is neither a Heaven nor a Hell, I would not abandon my faith. As it stands, it doesn't matter to me if I go to Heaven or not; I will do my best to remain faithful anyway.

Can you understand this?

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:18 pm

servant wrote:
As for "obtaining" salvation, one doesn't. God gives it, at the Last Judgment and not before, and no man has the right to anticipate what His judgment will be. There is no magic formula or statement of faith that is a pre-punched ticket to Heaven.
So...we just have no idea until we die.

That is exactly right. I know of no one who has died and come back to tell us what it is like being dead.

servant wrote: God left us with no idea regarding any of this because....

He/she/it is a human construct.

servant wrote: He does not care.

The universe does not care.

servant wrote: I mean didn't God give the Law to Moses?

That is what 'Moses' claimed.

Regardless of what Paul says, we have never believed that we are obligated to fulfill "the whole of the law" and be perfect and without sin to go to Heaven.

servant wrote: I've just been shot and I have only 1 minute to live. I've been a pretty good person but I am scared you know, I am dieing.

Interesting point...death itself is not so scary...it is the 'dieing' that causes so many problems.

servant wrote: I am scared I might end up in Hell. Please help me be at peace. How do I get into Heaven? I don't want to be wrong, this is life and death we are talking about and eternity is a long time. Help!

I would try to help you be mindful to the last. It could very well be the first time you have lived your life with any real awareness.

servant · Post by **servant** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:18 am

The 10 commandments are what God will use to judge all mankind as He is a perfect Judge.

Zzyzx · Post by **Zzyzx** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:14 pm

servant wrote:The 10 commandments are what God will use to judge all mankind as He is a perfect Judge.

Will those who have broken the commandments be sentenced to hell by the "perfect judge"?

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:43 pm

servant wrote:The 10 commandments are what God will use to judge all mankind as He is a perfect Judge.

Funny, that's not what Jesus said.

servant · Post by **servant** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:41 pm

John 5:22
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
John 5:21-23 (in Context) John 5 (Whole Chapter)
John 5:27
And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
John 5:26-28 (in Context) John 5 (Whole Chapter)
John 5:30
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:51 pm

servant wrote:The 10 commandments are what God will use to judge all mankind as He is a perfect Judge.

McCulloch wrote:Funny, that's not what Jesus said.

servant wrote:John 5:22
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
John 5:21-23 (in Context) John 5 (Whole Chapter)
John 5:27
And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
John 5:26-28 (in Context) John 5 (Whole Chapter)
John 5:30
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Was that supposed to answer anything? If so, I missed the point. Perhaps if you could connect the dots for me. I'm not all that good at making theological inferences.

servant · Post by **servant** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:55 pm

You brought up Jesus I believe.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:35 pm

servant wrote:You brought up Jesus I believe.

No, I brought up what Jesus said. You may notice that the name Jesus shows up in a different colour and that your mouse pointer changes shape when you move it over the word. This is called a hyperlink. If you click on the hyperlink, you would see the passage of scripture from BibleGateway.com, that I was referring to. If you are using an up-to-date browser that supports tabs, hold the Ctrl key down while clicking and it will open up in a new tab, and you need not lose your place here.

Matthew 25:31-46, where Jesus teaches that the final judgment will be based on kindness to those in prison, the poor and the homeless. You have said, "The 10 commandments are what God will use to judge all mankind as He is a perfect Judge." Now, either the judgment will be based on keeping the Sabbath and the other nine or it will be based on helping those in prison, the poor and the homeless. I don't see how it can be both, do you ?